Difference between revisions of "11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends"

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'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  
'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  


'''Eric:''' Exactly. so we're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game, too. What is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?
'''Eric:''' Exactly. oSwe're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game, too. What is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?


'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  


'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually filling the, um, voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually, um, filling the voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  


'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it.
'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it.


'''Eric:''' You gotta be kidding! This-this has never happened.  
'''Eric:''' You gotta be kidding! This - this has never happened.  


'''Sam:'''        00:03:00      Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this where it's just, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  
'''Sam:'''        00:03:00      Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  


'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...
'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...
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'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  
'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.  


Eric:  Well, so I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.
Eric:  Well, so what I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.


'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount...
'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount...
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Eric    I've been watching you transition.  
Eric    I've been watching you transition.  


Sam  Yeah I've grown pretty dark about the paper record.
Sam  Yeah (laughter) I've grown pretty dark about the paper record.


Eric  That's new.
Eric  That's new.
Sam  Yeah, yeah.  
Sam  Yeah, yeah.  


Eric  Like years ago you were somewhere else,
Eric  Like years ago you were somewhere else.


Sam  Yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about the New York times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted?  
Sam  Yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about The New York Times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted?  


Eric  Well I was on, I've been on the New York times since the 80s  
Eric  Well I was on, I've been on the New York Times since the 80s, um...


Sam  So you were early to this party.  
Sam  So you were early to this party.  


Eric  I was very early to this party for...
Eric  Yeah, I was very early to this party for...


Sam  But something has changed. So it's this... is this worse than the 80s?  
Sam  But something has changed. So it's this... is this worse than the 80s?  


Eric  It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that it's problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter..
Eric  It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that its problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter..


Sam  How old are you? You're not that much older than me. laughter  
Sam  How old are you? You're not that much older than me. (laughter)




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Eric No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as a three year old
Eric No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as a three year old


Sam  It was 69? or, something like that?
Sam  We're talking 69? or, something like that?


Eric  Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading...I will clarify...I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent... who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...'
Eric  Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading...I will clarify...I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent... who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...'


Sam  (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, At one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself.  
Sam  (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself.  


Eric  ok
Eric  ok


Sam  And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60s that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at you know, the, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction.  It was pretty shocking.  
Sam  And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60's that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at you know, the, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction.  It was pretty shocking.  


Eric Well...
Eric Well...
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'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
   
   
Sam  Okay. Okay.  
Sam  Okay.  


Eric The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how...'  
Eric The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how...'  
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