Difference between revisions of "11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends"

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'''Sam:''' I often look to you for...
'''Sam:''' I often look to you for...


'''Eric:''' Well, occasionally I get a call from you and you say, I'm thinking about getting all of the following form of trouble. Talk me out of it. Try and if I, if it happens that I'm not there for an hour and a half, I get another call saying "too late".
'''Eric:''' Well, occasionally I get a call from you and you say, 'I'm thinking about getting all of the following form of trouble. Try and talk me out of it.' And if I, if it happens that I'm not there for an hour and a half, I get another call saying "too late".


'''Sam:''' Yeah. I remember one that, a vacation that was unraveling and I was calling you from literally from poolside in Hawaii, yeah, the one vacation I'd taken with my family in a year and I was, I was poised to ruin it and ruin it I did. And I don't blame you for it, but whatever counsel you gave me did not, did not prevent the unraveling of a vacation.
'''Sam:''' Yeah. I remember one that, a vacation that was unraveling and I was calling you from literally from poolside in Hawaii, yeah, the one vacation I'd taken with my family in a year and I was, I was poised to ruin it and ruin it I did. And I don't blame you for it, but whatever counsel you gave me did not, did not prevent the unraveling of a vacation.
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'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  
'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  
'''Eric:''' Exactly. so we're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game, too. What is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?
'''Eric:''' Exactly. so we're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game, too. What is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?


'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually filling the, um, voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually filling the, um, voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  


'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it.
'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it.


'''Eric:'''You gotta be kidding! This-this has never happened.  
'''Eric:''' You gotta be kidding! This-this has never happened.  


'''Sam:'''        00:03:00      Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this where it's just, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  
'''Sam:'''        00:03:00      Yeah, yeah, I mean no, no, this is, there's gotta be some name for this where it's just, you know, it's some kind of recency effect or, I mean, clearly there have been periods in history where things really have been on the brink in some new way.  
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'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...
'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...


'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard pressed to find it at the moment.  
'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard-pressed to find it at the moment.
 
Eric:  Well, so I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting, because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.


Eric:   Well, so when I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.
'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount...


'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      Like this is an example, so you take the New York times and you and I whinge about the New York times a fair amount...
Eric    I've been watching you transition.  


Eric    I've been watching you transition
Sam  Yeah I've grown pretty dark about the paper record.


Sam yeah I've grown pretty dark about the paper record
Eric  That's new.
Sam   Yeah, yeah.


Eric  That's new
Eric  Like years ago you were somewhere else,
Sam Yeah. Yeah.


Eric  ike years ago you were somewhere else,
Sam  Yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about the New York times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted?


yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about the New York times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted
Eric  Well I was on, I've been on the New York times since the 80s


well I was on, I've been on the New York times since the 80s
Sam  So you were early to this party.


so you were early to this party.  
Eric  I was very early to this party for...


I was very early to this party for...
Sam  But something has changed. So it's this... is this worse than the 80s?


but something has changed. So it's this, is this worse than the 80s?
Eric  It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that it's problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter..


It's a good question. Depends. Worst isn't the right word in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that it's problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism.
Sam  How old are you? You're not that much older than me. laughter


''':'''        00:05:00      And the first clear indication I have of this I think was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter,


Sam how old are you? You're not that much older than me. laughter
Eric  I'm 53 sir
I"m 53 sir


I was still in my diapers.
Sam  I was still in my diapers!


No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as a three year old
Eric No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as a three year old


it was 69? or,  
Sam  It was 69? or, something like that?
something like that
yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading,I will clarify. I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent who was sent to cover Woodstock by the times being told, write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...


laughter strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, At one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself
Eric  Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading...I will clarify...I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent... who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...'


ok
Sam  (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, At one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself.
 
Eric  ok
 
Sam  And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60s that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at you know, the, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction.  It was pretty shocking.
 
Eric Well...
 
Sam  So I'm not getting really...


and had nothing but you know, nostalgia for the 60s that I missed. But now I have a fairly jaundidian look at you know, the, the slouching towards Bethlehem moment. That was a it was just the level of dysfunction and the non acknowledgement of dysfunction it was pretty shocking.
Well
So I'm not getting really...
I'm not gonna
I'm not gonna


'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
  Okay. Okay.  
The, what I recall of the story was, is that the times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up the times and said, I refuse, I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how  
Sam Okay. Okay.  
 
Eric The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how...'
 
Sam And I have have cholera? 
 
Eric So I think that the narrative aspect of The New York Times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at The Times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter-narratives occur, The Times really either doesn't report the story as is, and they really couldn't handle the-the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter-narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative.
 
'''Eric:'''    00:07:24      So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - I mean I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening.
 
Sam  Mmm
 
Eric So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at The New York Times all along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn-based writers who are telling us how to, how to think.


and I have have cholera?  
Same Yeah.


So I think that the narrative aspect of the New York times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at the times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter narratives occur, the times really either doesn't report the story as, and they really couldn't handle the, the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative.
Eric What do you make of it?
'''Eric:'''    00:07:24      So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that the times writes that I find Absolutely I mean I'll go so far as to say borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening.
mmm
So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at the New York times All along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn based writers who are telling us how to, how to think. Yeah. What do you make of it


'''Sam:'''        00:08:08      I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, the Times and the Post and the Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well,
'''Sam:'''        00:08:08      I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well.


Trump is saving their business.  
Eric  Trump is saving their business.  


Yes. Yeah. I mean they were actually there, they weren't doing great before Trump, but now they're doing okay. But the rest of journalism has been gutted. And now we basically have the blogosphere and you know, kind of what the Huffington post did to the landscape where you just have a lot of people blogging for free propping up a, a an ad based clickbait business model.
Sam  Yes. Yeah. I mean they were actually there, they weren't doing great before Trump, but now they're doing okay. But the rest of journalism has been gutted. And now we basically have the Blogosphere and you know, kind of what the Huffington Post did to the landscape where you just have a lot of people blogging for free propping up a, a, an ad-based clickbait business model.


  Sure. but again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the office of management and budget or something or,
Eric  Sure. But again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere, and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the Office of Management and Budget or something or...


  but it's not what I'm saying to be bad for journalists about journalism in general. Is that what you think of as the institution? I mean, just like the veneer, the front facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is, is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think salon was real journalism or out with the guardian. I mean, the guardian has like a kind of the blog side and the the guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well,  
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX'''Sam But it's not what I'm saying to be bad for journalists about journalism in general. Is that what you think of as the institution? I mean, just like the veneer, the front facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is, is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think salon was real journalism or out with the guardian. I mean, the guardian has like a kind of the blog side and the the guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well,  


and you find the same people on Twitter  
and you find the same people on Twitter  
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