Difference between revisions of "12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine"

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12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine (view source)

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(Created page with "=== Transcript === ==== Unedited Transcript ==== 0:00:05.899,0:00:13.440 okay well just just you know it's a good 0:00:11.280,0:00:16.080 question so the idea is that the t...")
 
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==== Unedited Transcript ====
==== Unedited Transcript ====


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okay well just just you know it's a good
hello you found the portal


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0:00:09.450,0:00:13.440
question so the idea is that the the
I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm


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0:00:11.130,0:00:18.390
dimensionality coincidence is that in
sitting here today with metallic beaut


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0:00:13.440,0:00:20.850
the the dimension of the floating planes
uhrin the leader and a founder of the


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0:00:18.390,0:00:22.560
will always be the dimension of the base
etherium world of cryptocurrencies and


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0:00:20.850,0:00:24.390
space alone
smart contracts welcome to the portal


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0:00:22.560,0:00:27.240
so imagine we're doing this in a hundred
thank you it's good to be here Eric it's


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0:00:24.390,0:00:28.740
dimensions and the base space were 72
terrific to have you now in general when


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0:00:27.240,0:00:30.480
dimensions and the fiber was 28
I see you interviewed immediately


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0:00:28.740,0:00:32.850
dimensions right it would be a seventy
everybody goes straight to crypto


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0:00:30.480,0:00:34.350
to seventy two dimensional floating
currencies in a Myriam but one of the


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0:00:32.850,0:00:37.469
plane
things that I found fascinating about


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okay
your story is is that in order to be a


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any other questions along those lines
good steward of this new and emerging


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yeah I got one right
economics you've actually applied


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okay just just short once if say you
yourself a great deal to standard and


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attach circular fibers to something do
regular economic theory and I was


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they have a size or shape or does it
curious if I understand correctly you


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just is it just important that they're
dropped out of college after a year


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cyclical like wooden ellipse our
you're self-taught in economics but


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Directorate substitution
you've taken a real interest in


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0:00:59.160,0:01:03.290
yeah I like that a lot here's the big
understanding how markets and economic


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0:01:01.649,0:01:06.450
problem with metric geometry versus
theory work is that a fair description


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0:01:03.290,0:01:10.380
topology you were born into a world with
yeah I think so and economics has been


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0:01:06.450,0:01:13.500
metric
of an interest for me definitely for a


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0:01:10.380,0:01:17.310
and as a result it's very hard to
long time I mean when I discovered


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0:01:13.500,0:01:18.720
imagine things that don't have metrics
Bitcoin back in 2011 and I was still in


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because every time you visualize
high school it was this kind of


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something you're seeing it inside of the
interesting confluence of ideas that I


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world that your brain knows which has a
was already pretty attracted to so open


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size consideration so sometimes I say
source culture that was something that a


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imagine that you've got intensities four
and a good friend from high school a


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degree of flavor so say take sweet salty
Christopher all I had already and if


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sour and bitter right
indoctrinated me with really well I'm


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those are four dimensions four degrees
the of the mathematical in cryptographic


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of freedom and you're asked a question
aspects also libertarianism in Austrian


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well is that more bitter than that other
economics was kind of the zeitgeist of


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thing was sour that that starts to put
the Bitcoin space at the day and those


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you in a difficult spot you don't really
were of ideas that I definitely have


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know how to say something is seven worth
found philosophically quite attractive


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of sour versus seven worth of bitter
at that time and you know I was


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versus seven worth of salt or seven
definitely curious and I read a bunch of


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worth of sweet furthermore is his sweet
books a yeah and read the Austrian


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are sweet and sour to one person kind of
economics Kanaan because that's what the


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similar things that's why sweet and sour
Bitcoin people were kind of talking


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works or does it really work because
about all day I read some kind of


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they're opposite or it doesn't really
behavioral economics literature Ariely


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work because they really have almost
Kahneman and


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nothing to do with each other and it's
Nakia D&E and all of those people just


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just two complementary sensations
because I knew that I had to read other


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different people might argue that the
stuff for balance um and yeah and also


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angle between sweet and sour is
economics itself is a kind in pretty


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different it's acute it's obtuse it's
mathematical and I've subject well kind


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it's orthogonal so that's an indication
of right it's it's on the borderline


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that in the four dimensional space of
because it's kind of both mathematical


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taste
and you got your curves and your


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with those with those taste buds
derivatives and your intersections but


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there is no metric on that space
also it's humanity is right it's like


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so when you have a fiber bundle there is
really at this intersection of like both


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not necessarily a metric on the fibers
figuring out how to apply these models


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or the base space you're really when all
to and of specific cases and also trying


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you have is a fiber bundle
to figure out well which models are


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you really are the category of
really correct in the first place and


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differential topology usually not
like the first question you can't answer


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differential geometry or romani in
with math but the second question you


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geometry where you would have length and
really can't and you need other kinds of


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0:02:57.600,0:03:01.769
angle so in terms of circumference or
thinking as well


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size or volume or all of these things in
well this is an area of my own interest


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general you have to learn how to forget
because the way I see it economics is


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that those things are present so
odd in a way that very few people I


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sometimes I'll have a plane and I'm
think have appreciated in that if we


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visualizing it but I have to make a note
take what could be argued to be our two


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of myself the length and angle I have
greatest ideas in scientific scientific


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when I'm visualizing has not been
man let's say one would be sort of the


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supplied yet in the problem so we call
geometric dynamics of physics and


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this the forgetful functor you know like
economics has been constructed to be and


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just forget that there is a length and
as if physics if you will and on the


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angle that you're able to see because
other hand and inherits from the theory


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that's not specified in the problem I
of selection you could say that markets


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hope that's helpful so is that like a
are the continuation of systems of


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constructional tool it's not an actual
selective pressures by other means and


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thing so like um
so what happens when our two greatest


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a construction line and of drawing it's
ideas touch each other and they do it in


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not meant to actually be a part of the
a place which has very bizarre


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drawing it's meant to help you construct
properties by my way of thinking that is


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a drawing well is the problem with the
that economists are on the one hand very


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problem with using visuals which I I'm
rigorous thinkers and are also very


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I'm trying to use visuals because I
susceptible to what we might call


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believe it's the way in which the most
political economy and distorted thinking


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number of people who thought they sucked
does that ring true to you yeah


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at math will be able to understand
definitely there's definitely this kind


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what's going on that there are some
of combination of I think for on the one


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downsides and I think it's a great
hand you have these mathematical


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opportunity to start talking about the
formulas and on the other hand these


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great downside is well one of them is
assumptions and often like the


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that you become too dependent on the
assumptions can be pretty pretty well


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artifact of the fact you're able to see
hidden and they're kind of difficult to


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something for example let's imagine that
see at first glance right in


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you have a sheet of paper that's square
like it really can be subtle right so


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0:04:28.430,0:04:34.220
and you agree that if you go off the
like one of the arguments that


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left side of that square you come
economists tend to put forward is


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through the right in in a made-up world
basically like mutually beneficial


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0:04:35.690,0:04:39.260
and if you go out the top you come back
transactions are but are beneficial and


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0:04:38.000,0:04:43.190
through the bottom doing the penguin
so like we should not interfere with


0:05:21.380,0:05:27.430
0:04:39.260,0:04:45.590
anything yeah you do it the pac-man or
them right like if I have a client


0:05:23.740,0:05:30.140
0:04:43.190,0:04:47.060
asteroids if you're of a certain age
battle and I I want to sell you the


0:05:27.430,0:05:32.000
0:04:45.590,0:04:49.430
you're really playing on a tourist
Klein bottle you're willing to pay five


0:05:30.140,0:05:33.919
0:04:47.060,0:04:50.870
you're really playing on a donut because
dollars then I clearly value it at less


0:05:32.000,0:05:36.169
0:04:49.430,0:04:52.340
if you were to fold the left and the
than five dollars you evaluated more


0:05:33.919,0:05:37.729
0:04:50.870,0:04:55.340
right together and attach them you'd get
than five dollars therefore the


0:05:36.169,0:05:40.310
0:04:52.340,0:04:57.350
a cylinder and then if you attach the
transactions on net good and like I


0:05:37.729,0:05:42.860
0:04:55.340,0:04:58.280
top to the bottom you'd get it too so
therefore I should give you the bottle


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0:04:57.350,0:05:02.180
all that time when you were playing in
and you should give me the money and


0:05:42.860,0:05:47.810
0:04:58.280,0:05:06.140
the arcade you were actually playing on
that's what we would do but at the the


0:05:45.830,0:05:49.960
0:05:02.180,0:05:08.990
a donut you just didn't think about it
reasons why that 10 sometimes breaks


0:05:47.810,0:05:49.960
0:05:06.140,0:05:10.640
because
down liquor in many ways more subtle


0:05:50.300,0:05:54.860
0:05:08.990,0:05:13.550
it wasn't specified as a doughnut it was
right like first you have monopoly


0:05:53.030,0:05:58.220
0:05:10.640,0:05:15.770
specified as go out the left come
issues like if I'm the only person


0:05:54.860,0:06:02.690
0:05:13.550,0:05:18.080
through the right so this is the globe
selling wine bottles then I might want


0:05:58.220,0:06:05.090
0:05:15.770,0:05:19.580
how some people make the flat map of the
to sell them at a yeah and a higher


0:06:02.690,0:06:08.180
0:05:18.080,0:05:22.420
globe and then you have like an actual
price than you'd be willing to accept


0:06:05.090,0:06:09.830
0:05:19.580,0:05:24.920
three-dimensional round globe well I I
because I want to extract more value and


0:06:08.180,0:06:12.400
0:05:22.420,0:05:27.200
don't want to get into issues of
sometimes the things that matter most to


0:06:09.830,0:06:15.260
0:05:24.920,0:05:29.360
distortion and map making because you're
society aren't things that we can


0:06:12.400,0:06:17.870
0:05:27.200,0:05:31.340
ignoring all that it's that kind of idea
transfer between people from one person


0:06:15.260,0:06:19.910
0:05:29.360,0:05:33.230
how how on the three-dimensional globe
to another like wine bottles but like


0:06:17.870,0:06:21.680
0:05:31.340,0:05:35.540
you're going all the way around let me
public goods and like the biggest public


0:06:19.910,0:06:25.250
0:05:33.230,0:05:39.170
get to the point of why I brought up
good of all is sort of is the idea right


0:06:21.680,0:06:28.070
0:05:35.540,0:05:40.820
this this thing about the torus in three
and an idea well if I have an idea and I


0:06:25.250,0:06:31.790
0:05:39.170,0:05:45.230
dimensions if you have a torus the torus
give you the idea I still have the idea


0:06:28.070,0:06:34.310
0:05:40.820,0:05:47.240
is always curved but literally when you
so it's something that once you release


0:06:31.790,0:06:35.630
0:05:45.230,0:05:49.070
have that square and you specify going
it it's out there and there isn't this


0:06:34.310,0:06:37.040
0:05:47.240,0:05:50.750
out the left coming through the right
kind of property of that so you know


0:06:35.630,0:06:40.880
0:05:49.070,0:05:54.470
and going at the top coming through the
should we just pause just briefly to


0:06:37.040,0:06:43.220
0:05:50.750,0:05:56.450
bottom you really specified a flat torus
talk about what a public good is yeah so


0:06:40.880,0:06:45.080
0:05:54.470,0:05:58.220
there is a flat metric on the torus with
a public good is technically defined


0:06:43.220,0:06:49.970
0:05:56.450,0:06:01.250
no curvature it just doesn't sit in
within economics many people have an


0:06:45.080,0:06:52.900
0:05:58.220,0:06:03.490
three dimension so for example I have to
intuitive idea as something which is as


0:06:49.970,0:06:55.960
0:06:01.250,0:06:05.830
remember that when I picture a doughnut
you're stating has this property of


0:06:52.900,0:06:57.800
0:06:03.490,0:06:09.020
tasty as it may be it's always
inexhaustibility mm-hm


0:06:55.960,0:07:00.200
0:06:05.830,0:06:10.130
distorting the fact that the most
and then the other attribute would be


0:06:57.800,0:07:05.750
0:06:09.020,0:06:12.920
natural metric to put on that thing as
excludability


0:07:00.200,0:07:08.890
0:06:10.130,0:06:14.360
is is a flat one ergo you have to learn
which is non excludability formal sorry


0:07:05.750,0:07:08.890
0:06:12.920,0:06:17.180
how to adjust
nuts non excludability


0:07:09.930,0:07:14.970
0:06:14.360,0:06:20.630
the visual input for the mathematical
sorry the the attribute of excludability


0:07:13.110,0:07:17.570
0:06:17.180,0:06:24.910
reality that may be masking or
and is used to define a public good so


0:07:14.970,0:07:17.570
0:06:20.630,0:06:27.620
distorting
if something is inexhaustible and in


0:07:21.150,0:07:27.540
0:06:24.910,0:06:30.520
so one more thing I wanted to sort of
excludable then it has this weird


0:07:25.080,0:07:31.580
0:06:27.620,0:06:33.260
ask the other day I was making that
property that even hardline economists


0:07:27.540,0:07:33.930
0:06:30.520,0:06:35.540
javascript thing with the like the
would agree that the market may fail to


0:07:31.580,0:07:40.009
0:06:33.260,0:06:39.110
crappy copy of what you demonstrated the
price in fact will fail to price the


0:07:33.930,0:07:43.039
0:06:35.540,0:06:39.409
other day well this is our NH
value to society of that object so there


0:07:40.009,0:07:45.050
0:06:39.110,0:06:42.169
I can't find you I'm so bad at
is an


0:07:43.039,0:07:46.500
0:06:39.409,0:06:44.269
navigating this goddamn second one
mission within economics that there are


0:07:45.050,0:07:49.410
0:06:42.169,0:06:49.519
second
zones of failure right


0:07:46.500,0:07:54.590
0:06:44.269,0:06:52.580
I'm looking for you where am i like
well I guess the kind of the big kind of


0:07:49.410,0:07:57.390
0:06:49.519,0:06:54.409
aaron age okay keep going here in h so
rethinking that needs to happen is that


0:07:54.590,0:08:00.750
0:06:52.580,0:06:56.719
just when I finish this and and and
there is a long been this kind of


0:07:57.390,0:08:02.430
0:06:54.409,0:06:58.429
plotting it all I so inside that it's
site-geist to that private goods like


0:08:00.750,0:08:05.310
0:06:56.719,0:07:00.050
it's just can't be tried it's it's just
things that I have and if I give it to


0:08:02.430,0:08:07.290
0:06:58.429,0:07:01.819
it's visually similar but there's no
you I don't have it and you have it are


0:08:05.310,0:08:09.630
0:07:00.050,0:07:04.729
Maps involved so don't don't look into
the norm and public goods are a rare


0:08:07.290,0:08:11.940
0:07:01.819,0:07:06.409
it very deeply but when I was doing that
exception but like really public goods


0:08:09.630,0:08:15.690
0:07:04.729,0:07:08.149
I realized hey I've I've seen this
are pretty darn important right like if


0:08:11.940,0:08:17.910
0:07:06.409,0:07:11.179
before you said you hadn't and I'm just
we didn't have public goods then we'd be


0:08:15.690,0:08:20.720
0:07:08.149,0:07:12.829
wondering if you've had any interest in
a trading sticks and B and Bear pelts


0:08:17.910,0:08:20.720
0:07:11.179,0:07:15.379
albatrosses
and we basically still be cavemen like


0:08:21.520,0:08:28.849
0:07:12.829,0:07:18.519
well are you familiar with albatross
they're basically the like an army would


0:08:25.759,0:08:30.559
0:07:15.379,0:07:20.689
I'm familiar with Coleridge's Rime of
be a public yeah yeah and or me well


0:08:28.849,0:08:35.380
0:07:18.519,0:07:23.539
the Ancient Mariner and I'm familiar
armies are interesting cuz there are


0:08:30.559,0:08:37.820
0:07:20.689,0:07:25.279
with the cover of Michael civics
kind of to us like in a medium scale


0:08:35.380,0:08:39.949
0:07:23.539,0:07:26.959
differential geometry book where he is
context or a public good and in the


0:08:37.820,0:08:42.589
0:07:25.279,0:07:28.519
saddled without albatrosses evoking
large-scale context or a public bad


0:08:39.949,0:08:45.750
0:07:26.959,0:07:30.469
Coleridge
because if everyone's army is we're


0:08:42.589,0:08:48.350
0:07:28.519,0:07:31.729
that might be what I'm about to talk
forced to be cut down by a factor of 10


0:08:45.750,0:08:51.449
0:07:30.469,0:07:34.579
about so for everyone else is listening
like we'd all be better off


0:08:48.350,0:08:54.480
0:07:31.729,0:07:36.259
so if you go to the beach you often see
so economics is like really subtle that


0:08:51.449,0:08:57.690
0:07:34.579,0:07:40.579
like seabirds eagles and seagulls sort
way especially once you have kind of two


0:08:54.480,0:09:01.470
0:07:36.259,0:07:42.379
of Ridge soaring so they'll they'll sit
layers of scale I'd play sure now one


0:08:57.690,0:09:03.930
0:07:40.579,0:07:45.050
on near a hill and there'll be a draft
thing that I worry a lot about that


0:09:01.470,0:09:05.550
0:07:42.379,0:07:48.919
of upward moving air and they will float
almost nobody seems to join me in is


0:09:03.930,0:09:08.490
0:07:45.050,0:07:51.889
in that and so they're sort of falling
that in our mutual world I don't know


0:09:05.550,0:09:12.029
0:07:48.919,0:07:54.769
gliding in at the same rate that the air
what to call it of people who are


0:09:08.490,0:09:13.769
0:07:51.889,0:07:57.019
is going up and and people can do that
experimenting with what I would say the


0:09:12.029,0:09:15.329
0:07:54.769,0:08:00.199
they can paraglide and things but
mainstream would consider far out ideas


0:09:13.769,0:09:18.029
0:07:57.019,0:08:03.649
albatrosses are different they seem to
like radical life extension crypto


0:09:15.329,0:09:21.690
0:08:00.199,0:08:06.019
have unlimited endurance so they can fly
currencies is a you know potentially


0:09:18.029,0:09:24.509
0:08:03.649,0:08:08.539
forever without flapping at all and this
being rival risks with sovereign


0:09:21.690,0:09:27.509
0:08:06.019,0:08:11.869
is they sort of found out that they can
currencies but in our world we talk a


0:09:24.509,0:09:30.360
0:08:08.539,0:08:14.239
use the boundary layer effect so
lot about the abundance economy in a


0:09:27.509,0:09:33.120
0:08:11.869,0:08:18.110
there'll be a wind across the ocean at
world of abundance and I'm terrified of


0:09:30.360,0:09:34.709
0:08:14.239,0:08:20.599
the ocean sort of ocean level there'll
a world of abundance because one of the


0:09:33.120,0:09:38.750
0:08:18.110,0:08:23.629
be zero wind and up higher there'll be a
properties that software has had is that


0:09:34.709,0:09:42.180
0:08:20.599,0:08:25.729
lot more and they sort of dive in to
it has replaced physical goods and


0:09:38.750,0:09:43.829
0:08:23.629,0:08:30.649
dive into the wind and they have a huge
services which have these attributes


0:09:42.180,0:09:46.199
0:08:25.729,0:08:33.620
headwind which gives them a lot of lift
they are not public with small files and


0:09:43.829,0:09:47.819
0:08:30.649,0:08:36.649
which lifts them up and then once
when a small file is not encrypted it


0:09:46.199,0:09:51.240
0:08:33.620,0:08:40.659
they're up in the air they'll dive away
has the attributes of a public good and


0:09:47.819,0:09:53.009
0:08:36.649,0:08:44.480
from the wind which gives them speed so
therefore value and price can can castle


0:09:51.240,0:09:54.990
0:08:40.659,0:08:46.850
the next time they dive into the wind
that's terrifying because then this


0:09:53.009,0:09:58.139
0:08:44.480,0:08:49.370
they've got a more of a headwind and
weird thing of markets which allows us


0:09:54.990,0:10:01.790
0:08:46.850,0:08:51.559
this is it feels like exactly the same
respite from dictatorship in somebody


0:09:58.139,0:10:01.790
0:08:49.370,0:08:52.970
sort of penrose stairs that
directing our activities and allows us


0:10:02.110,0:10:06.040
0:08:51.559,0:08:55.339
any energy that they have been sort of
to self-direct goes


0:10:03.760,0:10:09.100
0:08:52.970,0:08:58.069
doing this arbitrage between the higher
away because things can't be priced


0:10:06.040,0:10:11.470
0:08:55.339,0:09:00.379
and lower wind speeds near the ocean you
accurately are you do you have any does


0:10:09.100,0:10:14.800
0:08:58.069,0:09:03.769
know it's a very nice example it may
that have any purchase on your thinking


0:10:11.470,0:10:17.800
0:09:00.379,0:09:05.779
actually be tight it may not be an
yeah so and I think give definitely you


0:10:14.800,0:10:21.100
0:09:03.769,0:09:08.060
analogy so for example perhaps what
kind of struck at a very important point


0:10:17.800,0:10:25.870
0:09:05.779,0:09:11.149
you've just told me is that updrafts are
though I think and if my own framing of


0:10:21.100,0:10:28.240
0:09:08.060,0:09:14.449
a naturally occurring concept of a
the point is slightly different no I


0:10:25.870,0:10:30.700
0:09:11.149,0:09:16.819
horizontal subspace that is not
think like first of all like you start


0:10:28.240,0:10:33.850
0:09:14.449,0:09:18.680
horizontal in the standard way in other
off by think by realizing that kind of


0:10:30.700,0:10:37.870
0:09:16.819,0:09:20.149
words what is horizontal relative to a
private property and things is not


0:10:33.850,0:10:40.980
0:09:18.680,0:09:23.029
wind Blair is different than what is
something that fell out of the sky it's


0:10:37.870,0:10:44.820
0:09:20.149,0:09:26.000
horizontal with respect to the horizon
a social technology right it's that we


0:10:40.980,0:10:46.589
0:09:23.029,0:09:30.560
and in so doing you have an arbitrage
have these kind of norms that basically


0:10:44.820,0:10:50.519
0:09:26.000,0:09:34.100
between two different notions of
say oh you kid we will create this kind


0:10:46.589,0:10:52.410
0:09:30.560,0:09:35.930
horizontal and that would be very much
of mapping from objects to people and if


0:10:50.519,0:10:55.529
0:09:34.100,0:09:37.519
that would be very much the same thing
an object as maps to you then you're


0:10:52.410,0:10:57.750
0:09:35.930,0:09:38.810
as I was saying that one person's salary
allowed to do basically whatever the


0:10:55.529,0:11:00.050
0:09:37.519,0:09:40.550
was constant purchasing power the other
hell you want with it and other people


0:10:57.750,0:11:02.190
0:09:38.810,0:09:41.060
person's salary was constant dollars
cannot do anything with it without your


0:11:00.050,0:11:04.199
0:09:40.550,0:09:44.980
that's two different notions of
permission


0:11:02.190,0:11:07.470
0:09:41.060,0:09:47.240
constancy maybe you just said told me
and if that concept did not exist then


0:11:04.199,0:11:10.139
0:09:44.980,0:09:50.149
the same thing about wind layers that
physical objects would be public goods


0:11:07.470,0:11:14.420
0:09:47.240,0:09:51.829
that's actually a fiber bundle in the
right because like if there's a klein


0:11:10.139,0:11:14.420
0:09:50.149,0:09:53.600
making not an analogy I don't know
bottle over here the Quine bottle would


0:11:15.300,0:11:22.330
0:09:51.829,0:09:56.629
great yeah I've been I can see birds
be there but like really anyone could


0:11:19.120,0:11:24.640
0:09:53.600,0:09:58.759
from here from my window so I've been
take it and if you produce wine bottles


0:11:22.330,0:11:28.810
0:09:56.629,0:10:00.230
observing them and the exact same sort
then like you're not producing something


0:11:24.640,0:11:32.740
0:09:58.759,0:10:01.699
of cyclic up and down sort of with very
for yourself you're producing something


0:11:28.810,0:11:35.530
0:10:00.230,0:10:04.180
ingredients so in your visualization was
for pretty much different the first


0:11:32.740,0:11:37.570
0:10:01.699,0:10:07.370
there any was that anything particular
person who comes along and grabs it and


0:11:35.530,0:11:40.420
0:10:04.180,0:10:10.370
or was that just a random no no we said
so property rights right are this kind


0:11:37.570,0:11:43.990
0:10:07.370,0:10:14.000
of angles it's actually the
of social technology that helps make a


0:11:40.420,0:11:46.270
0:10:10.370,0:10:15.410
visualization I mean I'll just tell you
private good economy is tractable and we


0:11:43.990,0:11:49.150
0:10:14.000,0:10:17.149
late night people are you European and
could consider making social


0:11:46.270,0:11:50.650
0:10:15.410,0:10:18.769
oceanic people and Asian people what it
technologies to make public great


0:11:49.150,0:11:54.730
0:10:17.149,0:10:21.309
really was and then we can talk about
economies tractable right like the


0:11:50.650,0:11:58.540
0:10:18.769,0:10:24.079
with the larger group another point if
existence of public goods by itself is


0:11:54.730,0:12:02.380
0:10:21.309,0:10:26.360
you do the economic problem naively with
and it's not good or bad like arguably


0:11:58.540,0:12:06.510
0:10:24.079,0:10:28.040
two goods say chicken and beef sold in
it's even good because it means that


0:12:02.380,0:12:06.510
0:10:26.360,0:10:30.649
pounds or kilograms rather
people can't cooperate with each other


0:12:06.620,0:12:12.390
0:10:28.040,0:10:33.620
you get too many dimensions to visualize
on such large scales the bad thing is


0:12:09.450,0:12:14.220
0:10:30.649,0:10:35.120
so you have two dimensions of good two
that we don't really have good tools for


0:12:12.390,0:12:16.880
0:10:33.620,0:10:37.819
dimensions of price so that's four
handling it and specifically we don't


0:12:14.220,0:12:20.340
0:10:35.120,0:10:42.620
dimensions and then if you want to do
have good tools for handling yet that


0:12:16.880,0:12:22.530
0:10:37.819,0:10:45.410
price or goods again like either GDP or
managed to simultaneously avoid both not


0:12:20.340,0:12:24.720
0:10:42.620,0:10:48.199
inflation you have two additional
giving good results and like basically


0:12:22.530,0:12:27.960
0:10:45.410,0:10:51.230
dimensions so you have get six six
being centralized in dictatorial and so


0:12:24.720,0:12:29.910
0:10:48.199,0:10:53.389
dimensions overall so six dimensions
this is where my interest in radical


0:12:27.960,0:12:31.350
0:10:51.230,0:10:55.160
isn't gonna work in our visual cortex so
exchange comes in so this was this a


0:12:29.910,0:12:34.980
0:10:53.389,0:10:57.949
I worked hard to think how could I
movement that was started by gone while


0:12:31.350,0:12:37.530
0:10:55.160,0:11:00.889
decrease the cognitive load and I said
a couple of years ago when he wrote this


0:12:34.980,0:12:40.140
0:10:57.949,0:11:02.630
oh if I take the ratio of chicken to
a radical markets book and he advanced


0:12:37.530,0:12:41.820
0:11:00.889,0:11:04.639
beef purchased and the ratio of the
some of his proposals like harberger


0:12:40.140,0:12:45.030
0:11:02.630,0:11:05.860
prices which is what tells me what a
taxes and a quadratic voting were the


0:12:41.820,0:12:50.570
0:11:04.639,0:11:09.670
barter is so whether chicken and beef
ones that


0:12:45.030,0:12:53.310
0:11:05.860,0:11:12.579
are two and three dollars a kilogram or
and of the most popular and the and of


0:12:50.570,0:12:56.370
0:11:09.670,0:11:15.750
twenty and thirty dollars a kilogram it
the core and if idea behind the ideas


0:12:53.310,0:12:59.240
0:11:12.579,0:11:18.160
doesn't affect what a barter is so in
basically as like let's creates


0:12:56.370,0:13:01.890
0:11:15.750,0:11:21.279
the base space I put the ratios of
structures of kind of norms and


0:12:59.240,0:13:04.680
0:11:18.160,0:11:22.690
amount of chicken to amount of beef and
incentives that try to have the best


0:13:01.890,0:13:06.360
0:11:21.279,0:11:27.339
price of chicken to price of beef but
properties that we can get out of


0:13:04.680,0:13:08.690
0:11:22.690,0:11:30.010
then since I actually wanted to track
markets but do you do so without like


0:13:06.360,0:13:09.949
0:11:27.339,0:11:32.200
how much
basically economically breaking in the


0:13:08.690,0:13:14.089
0:11:30.010,0:11:34.839
[Music]
way that we know and if existing


0:13:09.949,0:13:16.369
0:11:32.200,0:11:36.730
the basket was growing I then put one of
property right systems do once you enter


0:13:14.089,0:13:20.250
0:11:34.839,0:11:38.350
the two components like chicken let's
a world where none of everything that


0:13:16.369,0:13:23.650
0:11:36.730,0:11:40.839
say as the vertical in the fiber
you build just inherently affects


0:13:20.250,0:13:26.380
0:11:38.350,0:11:42.670
so effectively what that was was was
millions of people well this is this is


0:13:23.650,0:13:28.630
0:11:40.839,0:11:45.760
measuring either GDP or inflation and
an interesting perspective you of course


0:13:26.380,0:13:33.370
0:11:42.670,0:11:48.490
upon which kind of system but let's do
are famous for implementing this


0:13:28.630,0:13:35.740
0:11:45.760,0:11:50.709
GDP now I've snuck both the ratio of
aetherium protocol but before we ever


0:13:33.370,0:13:39.340
0:11:48.490,0:11:53.829
chicken to be purchased as well as the
get to computer protocols there are sort


0:13:35.740,0:13:41.620
0:11:50.709,0:11:55.450
total amount of say beef so therefore I
of legal and structural protocols that


0:13:39.340,0:13:44.200
0:11:53.829,0:11:57.820
can back out the total amount of chicken
we impose upon ourselves in the form of


0:13:41.620,0:13:46.540
0:11:55.450,0:12:01.570
as well so now I've got a three
government and markets that are


0:13:44.200,0:13:49.210
0:11:57.820,0:12:06.089
dimensional system because I'm only
subordinate to government and there's a


0:13:46.540,0:13:52.870
0:12:01.570,0:12:09.390
using the price information that tells
weird way in which you may start a


0:13:49.210,0:13:56.040
0:12:06.089,0:12:12.610
me what a barter is and those loops
process by which you write down rules


0:13:52.870,0:13:58.030
0:12:09.390,0:12:15.370
would be an example of going around a
for how a society should function but


0:13:56.040,0:14:02.040
0:12:12.610,0:12:17.589
system
once those rules are written down you


0:13:58.030,0:14:02.040
0:12:15.370,0:12:19.930
that will that gave you constant
may discover all sorts of unintended


0:14:02.250,0:14:07.990
0:12:17.589,0:12:23.110
constant GDP and yet when you came back
properties of that rule set and there's


0:14:06.160,0:14:10.060
0:12:19.930,0:12:26.860
around you were actually producing more
a real question can we actually unhook


0:14:07.990,0:14:13.390
0:12:23.110,0:12:32.290
than you had previously so that's sort
ourselves from the killer app that is


0:14:10.060,0:14:17.290
0:12:26.860,0:12:34.209
of an economic paradox how can you be
capitalism or American democracy and if


0:14:13.390,0:14:18.700
0:12:32.290,0:12:39.279
constantly changing your GDP only by
we start to realize that that app is


0:14:17.290,0:14:20.620
0:12:34.209,0:12:41.470
barters therefore it's never getting
running out of control I guess in for


0:14:18.700,0:14:24.280
0:12:39.279,0:12:44.230
bigger or smaller but when you come back
and of myself as a enough social


0:14:20.620,0:14:26.140
0:12:41.470,0:12:46.029
you're actually producing ten percent
technologist and I definitely don't


0:14:24.280,0:14:28.420
0:12:44.230,0:12:48.370
more than you were in the exact same
think that we should be kind of


0:14:26.140,0:14:28.900
0:12:46.029,0:12:51.550
proportion of goods so that's where it
overturning entire countries with the


0:14:28.420,0:14:31.840
0:12:48.370,0:12:53.459
came from
new mechanisms overnight I think and I


0:14:28.900,0:14:34.810
0:12:51.550,0:12:58.360
and by the way so impressed was I with
was insinuating oh definitely I think


0:14:31.840,0:14:36.610
0:12:53.459,0:13:00.490
your albatross example that I will
like that's figuring out how to kind of


0:14:34.810,0:14:37.600
0:12:58.360,0:13:02.500
unlock an Easter egg how many of you
solve like grand problems of humanity is


0:14:36.610,0:14:40.180
0:13:00.490,0:13:04.690
know that The Rime of the Ancient
a long-term goal but I mean sure term


0:14:37.600,0:14:42.360
0:13:02.500,0:13:08.320
Mariner is set to the tune of Gilligan's
goals are there is definitely can make


0:14:40.180,0:14:42.360
0:13:04.690,0:13:11.610
Island
better right so I and this is actually


0:14:42.930,0:14:49.820
0:13:08.320,0:13:13.870
I don't actually know things except that
part of why I find a cryptocurrency and


0:14:46.920,0:14:52.950
0:13:11.610,0:13:17.140
it's a poem by Coleridge's it man yeah
blockchains interesting because they are


0:14:49.820,0:14:55.800
0:13:13.870,0:13:18.810
there is an Ancient Mariner and he
in a lot of ways this ideal ground for


0:14:52.950,0:14:57.750
0:13:17.140,0:13:22.500
stopped with one of three bye they long
economic experimentation


0:14:55.800,0:15:02.520
0:13:18.810,0:13:26.310
gray beard and I weary him
different types great so I to give one


0:14:57.750,0:15:04.440
0:13:22.500,0:13:28.590
now wherefore stop now me so if you ever
concrete example and in so one of the


0:15:02.520,0:15:06.899
0:13:26.310,0:13:30.360
want to memorize that poem
ideas that go on while and myself have


0:15:04.440,0:15:09.050
0:13:28.590,0:13:33.050
it fits perfectly for some reason to
come up with and are pushing forward is


0:15:06.899,0:15:12.000
0:13:30.360,0:13:36.510
Gilligan's Island which escapes me a
something called quadratic funding and


0:15:09.050,0:15:15.540
0:13:33.050,0:13:39.779
brief question given how busy you are
the way that quadratic funding works is


0:15:12.000,0:15:17.520
0:13:36.510,0:13:41.970
what time at Pierre Pacific so what time
roughly this right so you have a central


0:15:15.540,0:15:20.430
0:13:39.779,0:13:43.470
are you frequently here because there
kind of pool of funding and you could


0:15:17.520,0:15:23.970
0:13:41.970,0:13:44.820
I'd love to talk more about the EEA with
imagine this coming from a government


0:15:20.430,0:15:27.800
0:13:43.470,0:13:46.620
you as well have an interesting I'm
you could imagine this coming from


0:15:23.970,0:15:33.270
0:13:44.820,0:13:50.330
trying to manifest randomly and it will
wealthy donors you could imagine it just


0:15:27.800,0:15:37.380
0:13:46.620,0:13:52.740
I think that it's it's supposed to be a
in being put together by some like


0:15:33.270,0:15:40.850
0:13:50.330,0:13:55.860
grab-bag it's awesome it's supposed to
crypto economic protocol it could come


0:15:37.380,0:15:42.750
0:13:52.740,0:13:58.770
be that you don't catch all of them and
from anywhere and then you allow people


0:15:40.850,0:15:45.120
0:13:55.860,0:14:01.410
just to the extent that there's any
to basically set up projects and you


0:15:42.750,0:15:49.280
0:13:58.770,0:14:03.180
design in it I mean right now I'm
what people say I have a project here is


0:15:45.120,0:15:53.950
0:14:01.410,0:14:05.700
investing hoping that I can pull back
something that I'm doing and if you like


0:15:49.280,0:15:53.950
0:14:03.180,0:14:07.980
once we get the culture kind of underway
this then you can donate to me and give


0:15:54.310,0:16:00.050
0:14:05.700,0:14:10.529
if everybody gets a little bit of it but
what people donate to projects and then


0:15:57.050,0:16:02.060
0:14:07.980,0:14:13.440
nobody gets too much of it and people
the core of the mechanism is basically


0:16:00.050,0:16:04.250
0:14:10.529,0:14:15.120
can sort of say okay well this was the
that if there is a projects and multiple


0:16:02.060,0:16:07.580
0:14:13.440,0:14:17.700
intention
people donate to so there's some


0:16:04.250,0:16:09.260
0:14:15.120,0:14:20.880
then my hope is is that the culture will
projects you donate to it and someone


0:16:07.580,0:16:13.380
0:14:17.700,0:14:23.370
be
else donates to it as well then your


0:16:09.260,0:16:15.060
0:14:20.880,0:14:24.839
resident everywhere and people will say
donation doesn't just benefit you it


0:16:13.380,0:16:16.530
0:14:23.370,0:14:26.339
I well I wasn't on that call what
also benefits the other person and the


0:16:15.060,0:16:18.350
0:14:24.839,0:14:28.740
happened somebody else will say I think
other person's donation doesn't just


0:16:16.530,0:16:21.710
0:14:26.339,0:14:31.560
I understand it
benefit them it also benefits you and so


0:16:18.350,0:16:24.800
0:14:28.740,0:14:33.180
and by the way you know just I want to
to kind of counteract that kind of


0:16:21.710,0:16:29.140
0:14:31.560,0:14:35.700
point out there will come days just as
market failure the mechanism basically


0:16:24.800,0:16:31.910
0:14:33.180,0:14:37.650
just happened with linguistics where
says well we're gonna multiply the


0:16:29.140,0:16:33.260
0:14:35.700,0:14:38.850
somebody will say just as we were
effect of your donation by two and


0:16:31.910,0:16:35.630
0:14:37.650,0:14:41.790
talking about with like the Chomsky's
multiply the effect of the other


0:16:33.260,0:16:38.090
0:14:38.850,0:14:43.380
universal grammar and critiques thereof
person's donation by two and so now both


0:16:35.630,0:16:41.480
0:14:41.790,0:14:45.510
I'm not immediately up on that I'm not
of your incentives are kind of aligned


0:16:38.090,0:16:43.580
0:14:43.380,0:14:47.430
you know I came not falling I feel like
with the whole and you extend this


0:16:41.480,0:16:46.040
0:14:45.510,0:14:48.990
I'm I'm the the non mathematical
mechanism so instead of supporting two


0:16:43.580,0:16:47.300
0:14:47.430,0:14:51.150
language guy odd nah I'm here don't know
people it supports an arbitrary number


0:16:46.040,0:16:50.120
0:14:48.990,0:14:53.430
but it's not that it's just a question
of people and you kind of calculate


0:16:47.300,0:16:52.730
0:14:51.150,0:14:57.630
that people start to expect your heart
these subsidies across all possible


0:16:50.120,0:16:54.620
0:14:53.430,0:14:59.370
take on everything and you know it's
pairs of people and what you get is this


0:16:52.730,0:16:57.400
0:14:57.630,0:15:00.930
impossible what I was about to get to is
formula that basically says you let


0:16:54.620,0:17:00.680
0:14:59.370,0:15:02.820
we will get 2 points with geometry
people donate to different projects you


0:16:57.400,0:17:02.330
0:15:00.930,0:15:04.890
anthropology where somebody will say you
look at how many people donated and how


0:17:00.680,0:17:04.610
0:15:02.820,0:15:06.870
know Eric when you're transgressing the
much money you've donated and based on


0:17:02.330,0:17:07.670
0:15:04.890,0:15:09.330
churn be a representative of the second
this from the central pool of funding


0:17:04.610,0:17:09.470
0:15:06.870,0:15:11.880
part dragon class you know is there a
you give this extra subsidy and so it


0:17:07.670,0:17:11.300
0:15:09.330,0:15:16.650
dependence on the vile curvature in the
basically is like a market for public


0:17:09.470,0:17:14.150
0:15:11.880,0:15:18.480
case that the vile curvature splits in
goods right and in the etherium


0:17:11.300,0:17:16.850
0:15:16.650,0:15:20.190
dimension 4 under the star operator and
ecosystem there is something called that


0:17:14.150,0:17:18.310
0:15:18.480,0:15:22.440
I'll say ah you know remember somebody
get coin grants where we've basically


0:17:16.850,0:17:22.580
0:15:20.190,0:15:25.589
also say actually I happen to know that
started like trying to use this


0:17:18.310,0:17:24.650
0:15:22.440,0:15:27.510
so I'm looking forward to disappointing
mechanism to fund public goods inside


0:17:22.580,0:17:26.960
0:15:25.589,0:15:30.209
you know that it will be coming and it
the etherium ecosystem right so this


0:17:24.650,0:17:28.760
0:15:27.510,0:15:32.670
will become more frequent as the
could be implementations of the etherium


0:17:26.960,0:17:31.370
0:15:30.209,0:15:34.320
capacity of the community gets a lot
protocol it could be scaling solutions


0:17:28.760,0:17:33.410
0:15:32.670,0:15:37.530
higher a final statement uh just put it
could be wallets it could be educational


0:17:31.370,0:17:35.780
0:15:34.320,0:15:39.830
this way Chomsky never in his entire
resources and we've had a and of tests


0:17:33.410,0:17:37.670
0:15:37.530,0:15:42.120
life ever ever integrated illusionary
around recently with about and if


0:17:35.780,0:17:38.900
0:15:39.830,0:15:44.340
theory into human language I think that
$200,000 in this central matching pool


0:17:37.670,0:17:41.060
0:15:42.120,0:15:47.010
statement itself to someone like you
and it recently finished and you can go


0:17:38.900,0:17:43.490
0:15:44.340,0:15:49.410
should be an obvious error and thinking
to a get coin dot Co slash grants to see


0:17:41.060,0:17:45.290
0:15:47.010,0:15:51.210
right and so that's kind of what I'm
the results and we got contributions


0:17:43.490,0:17:47.450
0:15:49.410,0:15:52.890
getting at with it oh I'm super
from hundreds of people and the results


0:17:45.290,0:17:51.260
0:15:51.210,0:15:56.750
interested in that point you know I've
a gave were actually pretty reasonable


0:17:47.450,0:17:53.900
0:15:52.890,0:16:00.240
made another point which is that I think
so in tests yeah and and so I I think


0:17:51.260,0:17:57.680
0:15:56.750,0:16:03.360
that people don't appreciate that the
cerium could have a lot of value is and


0:17:53.900,0:17:59.840
0:16:00.240,0:16:05.150
reason consciousness is so hard is that
just being a test net in bed for and


0:17:57.680,0:18:02.390
0:16:03.360,0:16:07.980
there's probably a continuum of things
decentralized governance and


0:17:59.840,0:18:04.370
0:16:05.150,0:16:10.200
that are conscious right down to the
decentralized public good funding


0:18:02.390,0:18:06.020
0:16:07.980,0:16:12.360
fact that you know some in some sense
infrastructure of this kind well I think


0:18:04.370,0:18:08.480
0:16:10.200,0:16:13.860
that my gut which has a turret
that that's fascinating I guess one of


0:18:06.020,0:18:11.950
0:16:12.360,0:16:16.620
tremendous amount of neurons in it is
the ways in which I would understand


0:18:08.480,0:18:15.770
0:16:13.860,0:16:18.570
probably proto conscious in some way and
that is you know when my wife who's an


0:18:11.950,0:18:17.900
0:16:16.620,0:16:21.150
my concern of course is that when you
economist and I talk about this stuff we


0:18:15.770,0:18:20.630
0:16:18.570,0:16:23.250
say that humans have language and no
often talk about a market democracy has


0:18:17.900,0:18:23.270
0:16:21.150,0:16:25.230
other species is you know known to have
these two voting systems one is one


0:18:20.630,0:18:26.570
0:16:23.250,0:16:25.980
language or something like that that's
dollar one vote and the other is one


0:18:23.270,0:18:28.310
0:16:25.230,0:16:27.480
almost certainly wrong it's probably the
person one vote


0:18:26.570,0:18:30.860
0:16:25.980,0:16:30.530
part of the definition of the word
theoretically anyway even if that's


0:18:28.310,0:18:31.600
0:16:27.480,0:16:33.030
language which is killing us it's worse
honor only in the debris I and like


0:18:30.860,0:18:34.150
0:16:30.530,0:16:35.040
than that
liberal democracy does this horrible


0:18:31.600,0:18:36.490
0:16:33.030,0:16:36.570
skee I believe he wants to find language
thing of like treating these s opposite


0:18:34.150,0:18:38.410
0:16:35.040,0:16:37.920
is essentially just a spandrel which is
poles where something is either one or


0:18:36.490,0:18:41.650
0:16:36.570,0:16:39.270
as absurd given if it's an adaptive
the other and they're and they're often


0:18:38.410,0:18:44.110
0:16:37.920,0:16:41.370
fitness value you know so and I think
fighting each other one really


0:18:41.650,0:18:45.970
0:16:39.270,0:16:41.700
just briefly again whatever it does or
everything's a spectrum and I like that


0:18:44.110,0:18:47.470
0:16:41.370,0:16:43.470
has done it's kind of overturned a lot
a lot


0:18:45.970,0:18:49.600
0:16:41.700,0:16:45.870
of that and more and more people myself
I mean an another thing that we've been


0:18:47.470,0:18:51.850
0:16:43.470,0:16:48.410
I used to be a Chomsky in that I used to
discussing recently and this again is


0:18:49.600,0:18:53.650
0:16:45.870,0:16:51.510
study linguistics moved away from that
sort of drink with with Pia Milani is


0:18:51.850,0:18:55.150
0:16:48.410,0:16:54.060
because it was so absurd retrospectively
thinking about the Chicago approximation


0:18:53.650,0:18:58.929
0:16:51.510,0:16:56.430
to have not even have an eeveelution my
you've got some reality that's


0:18:55.150,0:19:01.080
0:16:54.060,0:16:59.220
context so does everybody know what he
incredibly nonlinear and complicated and


0:18:58.929,0:19:04.419
0:16:56.430,0:17:01.110
meant by spandrel in terms of
then weirdly yeah in a one of these


0:19:01.080,0:19:07.679
0:16:59.220,0:17:03.990
evolutionary theory yeah I was just put
famous instances where the map is not


0:19:04.419,0:19:10.950
0:17:01.110,0:17:07.310
yeah you're talking about earlier okay
the territory you take this incredibly


0:19:07.679,0:19:10.950
0:17:03.990,0:17:09.210
so I
simplified world where agents have this


0:19:11.470,0:19:19.680
0:17:07.310,0:17:10.830
I get very angry when people let that
properties you can't even believe you


0:19:15.549,0:19:23.880
0:17:09.210,0:17:12.990
music is just a spandrel you know I mean
would ascribe to a human being where you


0:19:19.680,0:19:27.870
0:17:10.830,0:17:16.080
it's very hard to even say even hard to
thought Homo economicus and you it's


0:19:23.880,0:19:31.350
0:17:12.990,0:17:18.270
say whether spandrels the the problem
perfectly rational and it it has all of


0:19:27.870,0:19:32.100
0:17:16.080,0:17:20.610
that I have with all of this is the very
these characteristics like an automaton


0:19:31.350,0:19:36.360
0:17:18.270,0:17:24.060
often
that only makes rational decisions and


0:19:32.100,0:19:39.030
0:17:20.610,0:17:26.280
somebody has to over cut off' on a point
then you impose that like through law


0:19:36.360,0:19:42.200
0:17:24.060,0:17:29.550
and for a period of time it becomes
and economics programs and suddenly


0:19:39.030,0:19:45.140
0:17:26.280,0:17:32.280
dogma as it
you've distorted your society by taking


0:19:42.200,0:19:48.290
0:17:29.550,0:17:34.530
makes its way through our consciousness
the map as the territory so seriously


0:19:45.140,0:19:51.020
0:17:32.280,0:17:38.720
and then it has to be overturned and the
that you don't realize that you're


0:19:48.290,0:19:52.790
0:17:34.530,0:17:44.040
person never really I don't know Chomsky
destroying something and distorting yeah


0:19:51.020,0:19:54.470
0:17:38.720,0:17:46.500
meant it as strongly or you know he's
no that's definitely and I think it's a


0:19:52.790,0:19:59.620
0:17:44.040,0:17:49.140
forced into a position where he had to
social it's one approximation


0:19:54.470,0:20:04.370
0:17:46.500,0:17:50.820
codify exactly what the rallying cry was
and you mean we're never going to have


0:19:59.620,0:20:07.280
0:17:49.140,0:17:52.860
but you know in general science proceeds
approximations that are perfect because


0:20:04.370,0:20:10.850
0:17:50.820,0:17:54.210
through over claims and the triumphalist
the world is just so we're glad to hear


0:20:07.280,0:20:13.490
0:17:52.860,0:17:58.169
period is necessary to consolidate
that yeah and the world is just so


0:20:10.850,0:20:16.550
0:17:54.210,0:18:01.140
that's something dramatic has happened
complicated and so even rapidly changing


0:20:13.490,0:20:18.220
0:17:58.169,0:18:03.419
and then the over claim becomes the sort
in a 21st century like aprox in all


0:20:16.550,0:20:20.990
0:18:01.140,0:18:05.070
of seed corn for the next revolution
approximations are bullshit but like you


0:20:18.220,0:20:23.690
0:18:03.419,0:18:06.480
yeah but as you often say you want to
have to find a couple of good ones that


0:20:20.990,0:20:26.410
0:18:05.070,0:18:07.980
talk about a field where there there's
work reasonably well and make progress


0:20:23.690,0:20:29.330
0:18:06.480,0:18:09.419
so much orthodoxy and institutional bias
for us and I think that one of the


0:20:26.410,0:20:30.290
0:18:07.980,0:18:11.760
the theoretical linguistics I was you
things that's unfairly done to


0:20:29.330,0:20:32.810
0:18:09.419,0:18:13.830
know I'm not anymore
cryptocurrencies is that we expect them


0:20:30.290,0:20:35.030
0:18:11.760,0:18:16.919
for years no but not but I mean if you
to solve all of the problems that


0:20:32.810,0:20:36.950
0:18:13.830,0:18:19.110
were to suggest anything contrary to
already cropped up yes in our forms of


0:20:35.030,0:20:38.930
0:18:16.919,0:18:21.870
Chomsky and doctrine you would be
governance and our forms of currency in


0:20:36.950,0:20:42.320
0:18:19.110,0:18:24.559
crucified in fact Dan Everett the
exchange in court systems and that what


0:20:38.930,0:20:46.630
0:18:21.870,0:18:27.090
scholar has been um he's looked as a
we should be asking of them is to be


0:20:42.320,0:20:49.070
0:18:24.559,0:18:30.570
kook and he's odd because he thinks that
improvements or to augment mm-hmm


0:20:46.630,0:20:51.110
0:18:27.090,0:18:34.470
language has you wish for an adaptive
already existing systems now one of the


0:20:49.070,0:20:53.690
0:18:30.570,0:18:37.380
value and a cultural application it's
odd things about governance is we could


0:20:51.110,0:20:57.920
0:18:34.470,0:18:41.400
not just a computer system in your mind
view you as in some sense starting a


0:20:53.690,0:21:00.290
0:18:37.380,0:18:44.940
and things like that and yeah I can tell
rival virtual country that has a legal


0:20:57.920,0:21:01.970
0:18:41.400,0:18:46.919
you someone who had to study syntax that
system because the etherium I don't know


0:21:00.290,0:21:03.560
0:18:44.940,0:18:48.390
they they just spooned like if you if
what to call it Network platform


0:21:01.970,0:21:05.870
0:18:46.919,0:18:50.610
you disagree but this had alternative
protocol


0:21:03.560,0:21:08.330
0:18:48.390,0:18:52.710
ideas you're just round and everything
yeah rules coins and it has the right to


0:21:05.870,0:21:10.940
0:18:50.610,0:18:55.409
had to conform to the Chomsky and you
reassign those coins and not only that


0:21:08.330,0:21:12.500
0:18:52.710,0:18:56.580
may be the fact that linguistics is such
but it has a stand-in for the legal


0:21:10.940,0:21:14.330
0:18:55.409,0:19:03.059
an obscure field to so many people
system in the form of what are called


0:21:12.500,0:21:16.460
0:18:56.580,0:19:06.090
really allowed for this type of
smart contracts mmm-hmm normally a we


0:21:14.330,0:21:17.930
0:19:03.059,0:19:08.400
orthodoxy to take a foothold that you
have this concept in governance I guess


0:21:16.460,0:21:19.970
0:19:06.090,0:19:10.559
just wouldn't see in other fields that
it goes back to Weber that a government


0:21:17.930,0:21:22.650
0:19:08.400,0:19:12.960
are I wouldn't you say more accessible
is supposed to be a monopoly on violence


0:21:19.970,0:21:25.600
0:19:10.559,0:19:15.570
but better known if you know what I mean
which is an odd definition that you


0:21:22.650,0:21:28.000
0:19:12.960,0:19:18.330
well as somebody who's challenged I mean
recover the concept of government from


0:21:25.600,0:21:30.670
0:19:15.570,0:19:21.059
I've gotten was the first about string
monopolizing violence and then you you


0:21:28.000,0:21:32.800
0:19:18.330,0:19:23.240
theory and I had a very difficult
sort of unearth and and unpack all of


0:21:30.670,0:21:34.600
0:19:21.059,0:19:25.980
interaction with Graham on the program
the features of government from that one


0:21:32.800,0:21:36.040
0:19:23.240,0:19:28.890
the other night yeah I'm aware
generating function in some sense a


0:21:34.600,0:21:38.800
0:19:25.980,0:19:31.890
couldn't follow it by the way cuz I'm
cryptocurrency and smart contracts


0:21:36.040,0:21:41.320
0:19:28.890,0:19:35.220
going to get birthing always thank you I
derive from math rather than violence


0:21:38.800,0:21:43.240
0:19:31.890,0:19:37.799
haven't released that so you know sorry
they derive from math and social


0:21:41.320,0:21:47.050
0:19:35.220,0:19:39.630
sorry it was it no then I'm confusing
consensus right I love the fact that I


0:21:43.240,0:21:48.910
0:19:37.799,0:19:41.549
him you know the inter gentleman who you
was gonna get to that but I know I guess


0:21:47.050,0:21:51.700
0:19:39.630,0:19:43.440
were disagreeing with him are you were
this is important right because like for


0:21:48.910,0:21:53.650
0:19:41.549,0:19:45.299
agreeing about disagreeing with am i
example you know you have the Bitcoin


0:21:51.700,0:21:55.960
0:19:43.440,0:19:47.130
confusing him someone else Garrett Lisi
blockchain and then you have the


0:21:53.650,0:21:58.060
0:19:45.299,0:19:49.500
and I had some disagreements about his
litecoin blockchain which operates under


0:21:55.960,0:22:00.130
0:19:47.130,0:19:51.090
theory but Garrett is not a string first
ik almost exactly the set at the same


0:21:58.060,0:22:01.900
0:19:49.500,0:19:53.730
he's an anti-shock there so oh and I
set of rules as the Bitcoin blockchain


0:22:00.130,0:22:03.670
0:19:51.090,0:19:55.500
would say Penrose is an anti string
and yet the Bitcoin blockchain has a


0:22:01.900,0:22:06.640
0:19:53.730,0:19:56.760
person I think when I have Graham for
hundred million dollar market cap and


0:22:03.670,0:22:08.920
0:19:55.500,0:19:58.289
mellow he's not a string person but he's
the white coin blockchain has a three


0:22:06.640,0:22:14.020
0:19:56.760,0:20:00.510
friendly with the top group he's sort of
billion dollar market cap or something


0:22:08.920,0:22:15.360
0:19:58.289,0:20:04.110
there chronicling the community and he's
like that and much less usage so


0:22:14.020,0:22:17.860
0:20:00.510,0:20:06.750
he's sort of a part of the establishment
like blog Chin's are definitely not just


0:22:15.360,0:22:20.190
0:20:04.110,0:20:08.730
there's the string people talk to him
math and technology math and technology


0:22:17.860,0:22:22.420
0:20:06.750,0:20:10.560
because they feel that they're getting a
are the substrate and maybe in the same


0:22:20.190,0:22:24.640
0:20:08.730,0:20:12.090
knowledgeable and some other gear from
way that the military is like the


0:22:22.420,0:22:27.160
0:20:10.560,0:20:15.600
their perspective but when I started
substrate of keeping a country together


0:22:24.640,0:22:29.380
0:20:12.090,0:20:18.600
talking to him I would hear him say
but they're including police force yeah


0:22:27.160,0:22:32.710
0:20:15.600,0:20:19.740
thing narratives that I very much
exactly but like they're the substrate


0:22:29.380,0:22:35.320
0:20:18.600,0:20:22.230
associated with particular people down
but they're not the country right the


0:22:32.710,0:22:38.170
0:20:19.740,0:20:25.020
to the verbal tics and phraseology so
country is the community well and this


0:22:35.320,0:22:39.910
0:20:22.230,0:20:28.620
you know you feel that the chronicler is
goes to what I would love to get into


0:22:38.170,0:22:41.290
0:20:25.020,0:20:31.230
becoming a pass-through and you're
you with love to get into with you which


0:22:39.910,0:22:45.250
0:20:28.620,0:20:34.260
actually listening to other voices
is the way in which different utopian


0:22:41.290,0:22:47.800
0:20:31.230,0:20:37.230
through the mouths of their earlier
dreams collide in the space of


0:22:45.250,0:22:49.570
0:20:34.260,0:20:40.110
interlocutor and then you have to say
cryptocurrencies so for example there


0:22:47.800,0:22:52.270
0:20:37.230,0:20:42.810
are you are you really saying that you
are some dreams that may sound more like


0:22:49.570,0:22:53.830
0:20:40.110,0:20:44.880
believe these things or did you were you
what I assume you may be active in the


0:22:52.270,0:22:57.550
0:20:42.810,0:20:46.710
told these things were you in a position
effective altruism community is that a


0:22:53.830,0:23:00.280
0:20:44.880,0:20:48.300
to evaluate these things it gets very
possibility yeah


0:22:57.550,0:23:02.560
0:20:46.710,0:20:51.720
painful and the part of the part of the
which tries to figure how to do the most


0:23:00.280,0:23:04.630
0:20:48.300,0:20:55.110
problem that I'm having this is that I
good to do good efficiently rather than


0:23:02.560,0:23:06.490
0:20:51.720,0:20:57.750
would I would like to think that in
sanctimoniously there are other people


0:23:04.630,0:23:08.590
0:20:55.110,0:21:00.420
these chats you're getting to see who I
who have this idea of I just want to


0:23:06.490,0:23:11.740
0:20:57.750,0:21:01.950
really am more than anything else that
retreat from other human beings and I


0:23:08.590,0:23:14.650
0:21:00.420,0:21:04.080
I'm not highly disagreeable but if
want to be left alone it want to be


0:23:11.740,0:23:17.320
0:21:01.950,0:21:06.900
somebody came into the chat and said he
taxed I don't to be told what to do very


0:23:14.650,0:23:20.170
0:21:04.080,0:21:08.550
you know well Erik is you very well know
strong libertarian perspective sometimes


0:23:17.320,0:23:24.180
0:21:06.900,0:21:10.440
you know if that was to be keeping of a
those people are the same people there's


0:23:20.170,0:23:26.770
0:21:08.550,0:21:12.000
sudden the standard model is the supreme
two kinds of libertarians there's well


0:23:24.180,0:23:29.200
0:21:10.440,0:21:14.100
example of the physical theory having a
there's many ways that's what Albertans


0:23:26.770,0:23:32.920
0:21:12.000,0:21:15.750
high agreement was experiment that would
is the two kinds but like there's the


0:23:29.200,0:23:34.840
0:21:14.100,0:21:17.640
cause me to become a raging dick and I
leave me alone type and then there's the


0:23:32.920,0:23:35.830
0:21:15.750,0:21:21.720
would start saying you're talking about
kind of conquer the world type right the


0:23:34.840,0:23:38.350
0:21:17.640,0:21:24.330
the
kind that kind of relishes seeing fiat


0:23:35.830,0:23:41.500
0:21:21.720,0:21:28.620
most agree with the magnetic moment of
currencies be destroyed and replaced by


0:23:38.350,0:23:43.690
0:21:24.330,0:21:32.070
the electron to eleven decimal places in
Bitcoin and it's kind of you know


0:23:41.500,0:23:45.669
0:21:28.620,0:21:35.790
quantum electrodynamics but that's not
creating a thousand a year kind of reign


0:23:43.690,0:23:48.720
0:21:32.070,0:21:40.020
true for this and that in QCD and you
of sound money that in I mean I


0:23:45.669,0:23:51.340
0:21:35.790,0:21:42.000
know it you know now why am I suddenly
generally have this kind of instincts


0:23:48.720,0:23:53.500
0:21:40.020,0:21:43.890
agitated why am i why am i becoming so
that like when someone says that like we


0:23:51.340,0:23:57.720
0:21:42.000,0:21:45.630
disagreeable it's because the argument
should impose a lot of short-term


0:23:53.500,0:24:02.169
0:21:43.890,0:21:47.160
is being absorbed into the frame and I
disruption and harm on the entire world


0:23:57.720,0:24:05.740
0:21:45.630,0:21:48.240
think it's very worthwhile to watch and
for the sake of some nebulous a long


0:24:02.169,0:24:09.429
0:21:47.160,0:21:51.000
monitor ourselves as we hear the
term gain that's something to be


0:24:05.740,0:24:12.690
0:21:48.240,0:21:53.400
argument either advanced as an argument
skeptical of but so I'm not gonna rely


0:24:09.429,0:24:14.820
0:21:51.000,0:21:55.530
or advanced as a frame
on the word skeptical mmm-hmm you're


0:24:12.690,0:24:18.710
0:21:53.400,0:21:59.010
and when something has advanced as a
using an extreme form of understatement


0:24:14.820,0:24:18.710
0:21:55.530,0:22:02.730
frame which is like for example
yeah yeah and so I mean I'm definitely


0:24:19.720,0:24:24.070
0:21:59.010,0:22:04.910
we cannot discuss anything to do with
not in in the camp that had of actively


0:24:22.059,0:24:26.080
0:22:02.730,0:22:09.060
intelligent design because the words
relishes like fiat currency is being


0:24:24.070,0:24:26.880
0:22:04.910,0:22:11.250
intelligent and design can not go next
destroyed but meanders and I definitely


0:24:26.080,0:24:28.780
0:22:09.060,0:22:13.530
to each other
don't think that all bitcoiners do it


0:24:26.880,0:24:30.730
0:22:11.250,0:22:17.010
well you understand what they're trying
like there is some that do see it as


0:24:28.780,0:24:32.830
0:22:13.530,0:22:18.840
to do they're trying to keep Jesus out
and of a something that's supposed to


0:24:30.730,0:24:34.450
0:22:17.010,0:22:21.180
of evolutionary theory that's a noble
coexist and something that's supposed to


0:24:32.830,0:24:37.030
0:22:18.840,0:22:22.680
thing to do I don't think Jesus should
provide a check and balance against the


0:24:34.450,0:24:41.650
0:22:21.180,0:22:25.770
be an evolutionary theory on the other
government's monopoly on issuing money


0:24:37.030,0:24:44.710
0:22:22.680,0:22:27.240
hand because species have perception and
without replacing it entirely so you


0:24:41.650,0:24:48.130
0:22:25.770,0:22:28.680
and cognition and try to select the best
know there are there's definitely enough


0:24:44.710,0:24:49.690
0:22:27.240,0:22:31.200
mate it is also the case clearly that
different visions within individual


0:24:48.130,0:24:51.940
0:22:28.680,0:22:34.230
when you can perceive your mating
communities there's different visions


0:24:49.690,0:24:55.470
0:22:31.200,0:22:36.570
opportunities and choose between them
between different communities you know


0:24:51.940,0:24:59.890
0:22:34.230,0:22:38.610
you are engaging endogenously and in in
in it there's it's not just visions


0:24:55.470,0:25:02.440
0:22:36.570,0:22:40.080
intelligent design now
about what cryptocurrencies should do to


0:24:59.890,0:25:04.390
0:22:38.610,0:22:42.600
that creates a very funny cognitive
the world it's also in your visions


0:25:02.440,0:25:07.270
0:22:40.080,0:22:44.220
problem because any evolutionary
about like what how cryptocurrencies


0:25:04.390,0:25:10.390
0:22:42.600,0:22:47.370
theorist is supposed to recoil it and
should work internally and what they


0:25:07.270,0:25:11.800
0:22:44.220,0:22:50.060
say several prayers to where ward off
should do to each other so like that in


0:25:10.390,0:25:16.870
0:22:47.370,0:22:52.830
the devil if the words intelligent
that sense I guess like a


0:25:11.800,0:25:19.270
0:22:50.060,0:22:54.780
design ever become adjacent now that
cryptocurrencies are interesting in in


0:25:16.870,0:25:20.920
0:22:52.830,0:22:56.250
that you know that duplicates the terror
ball chains not just because of like


0:25:19.270,0:25:22.330
0:22:54.780,0:22:58.830
that you might have of contradicting
what they can do in the world but also


0:25:20.920,0:25:23.800
0:22:56.250,0:23:01.470
Chomsky and somebody would say well
just as this and if microcosm of the


0:25:22.330,0:25:26.890
0:22:58.830,0:23:03.630
surely you're not contradicting the
world all into themselves I mean like we


0:25:23.800,0:25:29.620
0:23:01.470,0:23:06.060
central dogma level of like molecular
talked about country virtual countries


0:25:26.890,0:25:34.190
0:23:03.630,0:23:07.440
biology that protein can't feed
but you know there there's many virtual


0:25:29.620,0:25:35.840
0:23:06.060,0:23:09.240
information back into nucleic acid
countries now there's over fourteen


0:25:34.190,0:25:38.299
0:23:07.440,0:23:12.930
my point to that would be well that's
hundred on coin market cap and they have


0:25:35.840,0:25:40.490
0:23:09.240,0:23:16.050
very interesting why don't we just
some analog of you do think of them as


0:25:38.299,0:25:44.120
0:23:12.930,0:23:18.950
entertain that to see whether or not it
virtual countries it's singing all


0:25:40.490,0:25:46.700
0:23:16.050,0:23:21.210
creates a discomfort in you given that
models are bullshit but some are useful


0:25:44.120,0:25:49.190
0:23:18.950,0:23:28.110
no harm will actually occur
but to the extent of the country is a


0:25:46.700,0:25:52.900
0:23:21.210,0:23:32.240
why why don't we just hypothesize that
sensible thing to yes yeah yeah yeah so


0:25:49.190,0:25:55.850
0:23:28.110,0:23:38.700
like let's pretend that Jesus is really
in that world where we're dealing with


0:25:52.900,0:25:58.040
0:23:32.240,0:23:41.490
active in evolutionary theory you'll see
often very radical individualism and a


0:25:55.850,0:26:01.070
0:23:38.700,0:23:44.880
that people just their physical
very strong sense that there is


0:25:58.040,0:26:06.820
0:23:41.490,0:23:48.060
discomfort is enormous and if I can give
something wrong with the coercive aspect


0:26:01.070,0:26:09.920
0:23:44.880,0:23:51.350
an analogy there is a toilet in the
of a government do you worry that


0:26:06.820,0:26:12.670
0:23:48.060,0:23:57.290
Exploratorium in San Francisco or the
something that you have given birth to


0:26:09.920,0:26:15.260
0:23:51.350,0:24:02.240
Exploratorium is a science museum and
may start to behave in very different


0:26:12.670,0:26:17.570
0:23:57.290,0:24:06.270
the toilet is next to a water fountain
ways than you would ever want definitely


0:26:15.260,0:26:21.620
0:24:02.240,0:24:07.860
and somehow they put a water fountain in
probably the closest that we've seen to


0:26:17.570,0:26:23.930
0:24:06.270,0:24:10.410
the toilet and the water is perfectly
things like this happening already would


0:26:21.620,0:26:26.450
0:24:07.860,0:24:14.460
clean the question is will you drink
be the the initial coin offering a boom


0:26:23.930,0:26:28.670
0:24:10.410,0:24:16.950
from the water fountain that is inside a
in the 2017 and 2018 and like basically


0:26:26.450,0:26:32.210
0:24:14.460,0:24:19.020
perfectly new toilet that's never been
if what happens and there was that


0:26:28.670,0:26:35.810
0:24:16.950,0:24:21.870
used as a toilet as easily as you'll
people saw that cryptocurrencies are


0:26:32.210,0:26:38.810
0:24:19.020,0:24:23.580
drink from a water now you're encoding
something that could potentially had a


0:26:35.810,0:26:40.360
0:24:21.870,0:24:27.450
disgust at the idea of drinking from a
very high value and so people started


0:26:38.810,0:26:43.120
0:24:23.580,0:24:29.460
toilet
saying oh like I'm raising money


0:26:40.360,0:26:45.580
0:24:27.450,0:24:31.200
but the point is that that's a primitive
anyone come and give me fifty million


0:26:43.120,0:26:47.500
0:24:29.460,0:24:32.669
not a prefrontal thing it's not
dollars and I'm gonna build a


0:26:45.580,0:26:50.320
0:24:31.200,0:24:34.200
necessarily a bad thing that you should
cryptocurrency and I'm gonna make it


0:26:47.500,0:26:52.269
0:24:32.669,0:24:36.600
feel disgust but you can at least notice
great and I'll turn your 50 million


0:26:50.320,0:26:54.100
0:24:34.200,0:24:43.440
that the thing that is telling you not
dollars into 50 billion going guaranteed


0:26:52.269,0:26:56.919
0:24:36.600,0:24:45.149
to drink from this the very safe
and this like and like it's complicated


0:26:54.100,0:27:00.730
0:24:43.440,0:24:47.370
drinking fountain put into a toilet is
right because I mean on the one hand


0:26:56.919,0:27:02.790
0:24:45.149,0:24:48.929
that it was a heuristic that hardened
like the possibility of a kind of


0:27:00.730,0:27:05.520
0:24:47.370,0:24:52.679
into dog
raising money and using it to fund


0:27:02.790,0:27:08.870
0:24:48.929,0:24:54.899
and I highly encourage people to both
cryptocurrency development like it's it


0:27:05.520,0:27:11.890
0:24:52.679,0:24:56.610
respect those heuristics that cause us
did a lot of good right began like in


0:27:08.870,0:27:14.830
0:24:54.899,0:24:59.760
to have discussed
general like the open source community


0:27:11.890,0:27:16.090
0:24:56.610,0:25:01.889
and to be able to question them if
it's and it kind of acutely suffers from


0:27:14.830,0:27:18.010
0:24:59.760,0:25:03.659
you're really going to be the
this have public goods challenge that we


0:27:16.090,0:27:20.440
0:25:01.889,0:25:06.600
intellectual elite you know this is a
talked about because an open source


0:27:18.010,0:27:25.030
0:25:03.659,0:25:09.299
source of profit if you can entertain an
software is a very public good and like


0:27:20.440,0:27:26.830
0:25:06.600,0:25:10.860
idea that others cannot without undoing
we saw some very public and if splats


0:27:25.030,0:27:28.450
0:25:09.299,0:25:13.529
the hard work that your brain has put
involving open source software being


0:27:26.830,0:27:30.580
0:25:10.860,0:25:15.029
into keeping you safe
under maintains like the CloudFlare and


0:27:28.450,0:27:33.130
0:25:13.529,0:25:17.610
by having these heuristics be quite
of issues a couple years back when it


0:27:30.580,0:27:35.050
0:25:15.029,0:25:19.320
powerful you will be in a much better
turned out that's an open ssl library it


0:27:33.130,0:27:37.060
0:25:17.610,0:25:20.909
position to go back and forth between
was like really really under maintained


0:27:35.050,0:27:40.380
0:25:19.320,0:25:23.130
being a regular human being who never
despite billions of dollars of value


0:27:37.060,0:27:42.930
0:25:20.909,0:25:24.899
drinks from a toilet and being
depending on it and with


0:27:40.380,0:27:45.520
0:25:23.130,0:25:26.100
intellectually liberated and free in
cryptocurrencies suddenly you could make


0:27:42.930,0:27:48.750
0:25:24.899,0:25:28.799
that you can conceive of the idea that
things that are completely open-source


0:27:45.520,0:27:48.750
0:25:26.100,0:25:31.970
one should drink from a toilet
that through coins do have a funding


0:27:52.539,0:27:59.409
0:25:28.799,0:25:34.919
and with that notion of drinking from
mechanism and like you know this has


0:27:56.229,0:28:03.009
0:25:31.970,0:25:36.179
toilets the sleepy man who is hoping to
massive massively accelerated the


0:27:59.409,0:28:06.940
0:25:34.919,0:25:38.250
reach Europe Asia and Oceania or in
development of many kinds of


0:28:03.009,0:28:09.269
0:25:36.179,0:25:40.740
Africa must go to sleep thank you guys
cryptography zero-knowledge proofs and


0:28:06.940,0:28:12.419
0:25:38.250,0:25:42.750
for hanging out and keeping me company
peer-to-peer networking a lot of other


0:28:09.269,0:28:12.419
0:25:40.740,0:25:45.539
thank you
things but at this on the other hand
 
0:25:42.750,0:25:49.200
like it's also given rise to this kind
 
0:25:45.539,0:25:50.340
of speculation and in many cases the
 
0:25:49.200,0:25:53.490
projects turned out to be outright
 
0:25:50.340,0:25:55.470
fraudulent right but it's a really
 
0:25:53.490,0:25:57.419
delicious and weird situation I haven't
 
0:25:55.470,0:26:00.779
asked you about it yet but you're I
 
0:25:57.419,0:26:03.590
presume that your net worth crashed a
 
0:26:00.779,0:26:05.820
great deal we got run up and then came
 
0:26:03.590,0:26:10.039
came back yeah
 
0:26:05.820,0:26:17.429
and were you happy in any way about that
 
0:26:10.039,0:26:19.289
relieved relieved yeah so when the right
 
0:26:17.429,0:26:24.299
at the top of the big bubble like in
 
0:26:19.289,0:26:27.539
December 2017 when yeah good coin was
 
0:26:24.299,0:26:30.299
hitting 20,000 eath was hitting 1,400 I
 
0:26:27.539,0:26:32.880
mean I made this tweet and a series of
 
0:26:30.299,0:26:34.080
tweets and that and it became somewhat
 
0:26:32.880,0:26:36.419
famous one in the space where I
 
0:26:34.080,0:26:38.309
basically said the cryptocurrency space
 
0:26:36.419,0:26:41.040
has reached half a trillion dollars does
 
0:26:38.309,0:26:43.200
does it deserve it like do the thing
 
0:26:41.040,0:26:46.080
that it's actually accomplished like
 
0:26:43.200,0:26:49.020
hold a candle to the promises that my
 
0:26:46.080,0:26:51.450
market is ascribing to it and I mean the
 
0:26:49.020,0:26:54.630
subtext of my answer is not yet and that
 
0:26:51.450,0:26:58.620
was proven very right yeah I fairly
 
0:26:54.630,0:27:04.640
quickly and but you didn't short it did
 
0:26:58.620,0:27:07.410
you so the iana I did can you get and
 
0:27:04.640,0:27:09.780
get the etherium foundation to sell
 
0:27:07.410,0:27:11.520
about seventy thousand eath like
 
0:27:09.780,0:27:14.400
basically at the top and that's doubled
 
0:27:11.520,0:27:16.860
our runway now so there was one good
 
0:27:14.400,0:27:19.380
decision that had a land that had a lot
 
0:27:16.860,0:27:25.200
of impact but it did not short I should
 
0:27:19.380,0:27:29.540
say that I was weirdly somewhat relieved
 
0:27:25.200,0:27:34.260
as well I view that the innovation of
 
0:27:29.540,0:27:37.290
decentralized transactions and the bid
 
0:27:34.260,0:27:39.570
and you know it's hard for me to say
 
0:27:37.290,0:27:41.490
because I actually I'm convinced that
 
0:27:39.570,0:27:43.230
the blockchain should be an intermediate
 
0:27:41.490,0:27:46.500
state and should not be the permanent
 
0:27:43.230,0:27:50.190
version of decentralized computing angry
 
0:27:46.500,0:27:52.760
okay but I thought that that was such an
 
0:27:50.190,0:27:57.900
amazing innovation that you could have a
 
0:27:52.760,0:28:00.390
locally enforced mechanism without a
 
0:27:57.900,0:28:03.060
centralized Authority but with a global
 
0:28:00.390,0:28:08.610
ledger unfair which which I see if it is
 
0:28:03.060,0:28:10.710
a point of intellectual failure that in
 
0:28:08.610,0:28:12.990
some sense you're mirroring the
 
0:28:10.710,0:28:17.370
transactions of the physical world so
 
0:28:12.990,0:28:20.880
for example for those listening at home
 
0:28:17.370,0:28:23.430
who don't have a visual here Vitalik has
 
0:28:20.880,0:28:25.650
several glass bottles next to him were
 
0:28:23.430,0:28:29.760
he to give one to me which he shouldn't
 
0:28:25.650,0:28:31.980
do right now but the idea would be that
 
0:28:29.760,0:28:35.220
it would no longer be in his space and
 
0:28:31.980,0:28:40.640
it would be in mine and that property of
 
0:28:35.220,0:28:43.410
Adams has been somewhat mirrored in
 
0:28:40.640,0:28:46.770
Bitcoin and blockchain and aetherium
 
0:28:43.410,0:28:49.200
transactions I mean this is like the
 
0:28:46.770,0:28:51.600
concept of like money as a thing right
 
0:28:49.200,0:28:53.910
the and if the scarcity of the 21
 
0:28:51.600,0:28:54.870
million limit if I give you five coins I
 
0:28:53.910,0:28:57.240
have five of us and you
 
0:28:54.870,0:28:58.710
five more right and so the idea is that
 
0:28:57.240,0:29:02.370
it's a what you're doing is you're
 
0:28:58.710,0:29:04.680
porting conservation laws into from the
 
0:29:02.370,0:29:09.450
physical layer into the logical layer
 
0:29:04.680,0:29:11.790
right and yeah and I guess and if to
 
0:29:09.450,0:29:13.710
some extent kind of reflects the kind of
 
0:29:11.790,0:29:16.920
very deeply enough Austrian economic
 
0:29:13.710,0:29:19.700
libertarian and origins of the the space
 
0:29:16.920,0:29:24.510
way better back in the end of 2009 to
 
0:29:19.700,0:29:27.690
2013 days I mean creating like digital
 
0:29:24.510,0:29:29.250
gold was pretty much the Fukien Digital
 
0:29:27.690,0:29:32.580
payment system was the first use case
 
0:29:29.250,0:29:34.559
but and I definitely think that like we
 
0:29:32.580,0:29:36.120
can and should be thinking about point
 
0:29:34.559,0:29:38.460
systems that work in ways other than
 
0:29:36.120,0:29:41.030
money well I agree with that and I also
 
0:29:38.460,0:29:44.040
think that it isn't digital gold because
 
0:29:41.030,0:29:46.620
as the saying goes you know gold or
 
0:29:44.040,0:29:49.260
money has no stench and that the
 
0:29:46.620,0:29:51.480
blockchain is this bizarre difference
 
0:29:49.260,0:29:55.230
with the physical world and that it is a
 
0:29:51.480,0:29:58.320
distributed ledger that may be somewhat
 
0:29:55.230,0:30:01.260
anonymous but it still gives the history
 
0:29:58.320,0:30:05.750
like if I hand you a dollar and and you
 
0:30:01.260,0:30:09.090
don't have access to any particular
 
0:30:05.750,0:30:11.160
means of analyzing whose DNA is on that
 
0:30:09.090,0:30:14.790
dollar you have no idea where it's been
 
0:30:11.160,0:30:17.040
and these that is not that is violated
 
0:30:14.790,0:30:20.070
by the current block chain type
 
0:30:17.040,0:30:22.350
implementations yes so it isn't a
 
0:30:20.070,0:30:25.770
complete port of the physical world into
 
0:30:22.350,0:30:27.690
a digital but it is a an astounding one
 
0:30:25.770,0:30:30.240
and I guess I get very frustrated with
 
0:30:27.690,0:30:32.220
the economics questions like well what's
 
0:30:30.240,0:30:34.340
good what's it good for where's the
 
0:30:32.220,0:30:37.350
killer app I mean we have all of
 
0:30:34.340,0:30:40.740
whatever's left of human civilization to
 
0:30:37.350,0:30:42.929
figure out what this thing is meant to
 
0:30:40.740,0:30:44.490
do you know and I'm not very worried
 
0:30:42.929,0:30:46.530
that we were not going to figure it out
 
0:30:44.490,0:30:48.360
I mean we're going to figure it out
 
0:30:46.530,0:30:49.860
sooner or later because a conservation
 
0:30:48.360,0:30:53.429
law and digital space is just too
 
0:30:49.860,0:30:56.100
valuable is that wrong are you worried
 
0:30:53.429,0:30:58.170
at all about the search for like I I
 
0:30:56.100,0:30:59.640
just hate this question you know where's
 
0:30:58.170,0:31:02.760
that where's the killer app and I'm
 
0:30:59.640,0:31:05.400
thinking chill out man this is an
 
0:31:02.760,0:31:08.130
astounding intellectual achievement what
 
0:31:05.400,0:31:11.700
is that wrong yeah and I say
 
0:31:08.130,0:31:14.669
there's definitely a and a long time to
 
0:31:11.700,0:31:16.530
go and they think you know the apps will
 
0:31:14.669,0:31:18.500
come you know there's the ones that are
 
0:31:16.530,0:31:21.630
coming right now are basically a kind of
 
0:31:18.500,0:31:24.900
financial but I think I mean that's kind
 
0:31:21.630,0:31:26.760
of true just in part because the finance
 
0:31:24.900,0:31:28.950
the existing financial system is just
 
0:31:26.760,0:31:31.830
like so ready and waiting there to be
 
0:31:28.950,0:31:34.860
disrupted event in like in the long term
 
0:31:31.830,0:31:42.030
like there's there's it's disrupted and
 
0:31:34.860,0:31:43.470
polite term for destroyed you choose but
 
0:31:42.030,0:31:46.470
I mean there's something interesting
 
0:31:43.470,0:31:53.210
here you're 25 years old every bit of
 
0:31:46.470,0:31:58.289
your adult life is post 2008 mm-hmm and
 
0:31:53.210,0:32:01.559
to be 25 years old and in charge of a
 
0:31:58.289,0:32:03.270
financial ecosystem to the extent that
 
0:32:01.559,0:32:05.400
anyone is in charge of etherium and I
 
0:32:03.270,0:32:07.350
don't want to claim that you are sitting
 
0:32:05.400,0:32:11.820
there running and making all these
 
0:32:07.350,0:32:14.850
decisions that's an astounding thing
 
0:32:11.820,0:32:19.429
that that this has fallen to somebody
 
0:32:14.850,0:32:23.250
who whose adult life has post the crash
 
0:32:19.429,0:32:25.230
hmm do you think about that at all that
 
0:32:23.250,0:32:28.020
you don't have the same associations the
 
0:32:25.230,0:32:30.690
rest of us do with markets when they
 
0:32:28.020,0:32:32.340
were claimed to be working well like
 
0:32:30.690,0:32:34.380
during the during the era of the Great
 
0:32:32.340,0:32:39.840
Moderation supposedly when volatility
 
0:32:34.380,0:32:42.210
was banished yeah 17:12 right so one
 
0:32:39.840,0:32:44.010
thing that I kind of when we realized
 
0:32:42.210,0:32:46.289
the recently that I found interesting is
 
0:32:44.010,0:32:48.030
that there like there aren't kind of two
 
0:32:46.289,0:32:51.470
tribes here there's to be tribes right
 
0:32:48.030,0:32:56.340
and what I mean by this is that there's
 
0:32:51.470,0:32:59.039
the tribe that says markets are great
 
0:32:56.340,0:33:01.169
and there's the tribe that says markets
 
0:32:59.039,0:33:02.280
are bad and like we should move to more
 
0:33:01.169,0:33:05.429
things don't look like political
 
0:33:02.280,0:33:08.100
mechanisms but then if you look at kind
 
0:33:05.429,0:33:10.190
of the zeitgeist that's kind of fairly
 
0:33:08.100,0:33:12.210
popular in the cryptocurrencies space
 
0:33:10.190,0:33:16.070
definitely even still now to a big
 
0:33:12.210,0:33:19.559
extent it's that markets are great but
 
0:33:16.070,0:33:22.020
the thing that existed and exists like
 
0:33:19.559,0:33:26.010
isn't markets and
 
0:33:22.020,0:33:28.260
so yes like there's people who are pro
 
0:33:26.010,0:33:29.910
market and who see ahead of the existing
 
0:33:28.260,0:33:31.560
financial system as being that and
 
0:33:29.910,0:33:33.420
there's people who are pro market at
 
0:33:31.560,0:33:35.640
receive the existing financial system as
 
0:33:33.420,0:33:36.930
being like yet another one of the
 
0:33:35.640,0:33:39.660
perversions of that that needs to be
 
0:33:36.930,0:33:43.260
overcome well it's odd because I would
 
0:33:39.660,0:33:47.010
love to fix our democracy I'd love to
 
0:33:43.260,0:33:49.410
fix our markets but I am I have to say I
 
0:33:47.010,0:33:54.150
believe that I have grown up in a an
 
0:33:49.410,0:33:56.100
approximately 50 year bubble which the
 
0:33:54.150,0:34:00.770
Silent Generation and then the boomers
 
0:33:56.100,0:34:03.900
presided over and my own read is that
 
0:34:00.770,0:34:06.780
because of their inability to figure out
 
0:34:03.900,0:34:09.300
sufficient innovation to take over from
 
0:34:06.780,0:34:12.840
the previously innovative system that
 
0:34:09.300,0:34:15.360
the world of human expertise has been
 
0:34:12.840,0:34:17.790
almost completely contaminated by
 
0:34:15.360,0:34:21.270
special pleading and political economy
 
0:34:17.790,0:34:23.780
so that many of us who don't have a
 
0:34:21.270,0:34:28.620
particularly Austrian or libertarian
 
0:34:23.780,0:34:32.159
bent are just sick to death of being
 
0:34:28.620,0:34:34.010
lied to by people claim to be Nobel
 
0:34:32.159,0:34:37.679
laureates in economics yep
 
0:34:34.010,0:34:39.840
do you have any emotional connection to
 
0:34:37.679,0:34:42.860
you hmm
 
0:34:39.840,0:34:45.960
like I feel like I'm lied to about
 
0:34:42.860,0:34:47.370
almost almost you know the doctors are
 
0:34:45.960,0:34:48.390
lying the lawyers are lying the
 
0:34:47.370,0:34:52.010
accountants are lying
 
0:34:48.390,0:34:55.230
the extraction companies are lying and
 
0:34:52.010,0:34:57.510
it's not because of a million different
 
0:34:55.230,0:34:59.700
reasons it's because growth ran out and
 
0:34:57.510,0:35:03.000
our whole society is predicated on a
 
0:34:59.700,0:35:06.030
need for economic growth yeah no there's
 
0:35:03.000,0:35:07.710
definitely and of things that are that
 
0:35:06.030,0:35:10.320
have changed in us and assess them
 
0:35:07.710,0:35:11.490
that's just not keeping up and doesn't
 
0:35:10.320,0:35:16.130
and doesn't understand that there is
 
0:35:11.490,0:35:17.700
such a thing as keeping up and it's like
 
0:35:16.130,0:35:22.740
hmm
 
0:35:17.700,0:35:24.240
so like one thing that even Gwen talks
 
0:35:22.740,0:35:27.630
about this right what he talks about
 
0:35:24.240,0:35:31.400
kind of the mortgage markets has social
 
0:35:27.630,0:35:35.230
technology mentality versus the like
 
0:35:31.400,0:35:39.550
basically end of history mentality and I
 
0:35:35.230,0:35:42.730
like the way that I can and I definitely
 
0:35:39.550,0:35:44.680
saw this kind of zeitgeist 10 years ago
 
0:35:42.730,0:35:46.300
that said kind of even more broadly than
 
0:35:44.680,0:35:49.900
like markets versus other mechanisms
 
0:35:46.300,0:35:51.700
that's like things are 80% efficient and
 
0:35:49.900,0:35:52.240
lots of work to make them 95 percent
 
0:35:51.700,0:35:57.190
efficient
 
0:35:52.240,0:35:58.869
whereas the the thing that's really
 
0:35:57.190,0:35:59.980
going on is that things are 3 percent
 
0:35:58.869,0:36:02.080
efficient and we should work hard on
 
0:35:59.980,0:36:05.170
making them six percent efficient like
 
0:36:02.080,0:36:07.720
if you kind of move away from the narrow
 
0:36:05.170,0:36:08.859
context of like I'm I have something to
 
0:36:07.720,0:36:10.540
sell when you have something to buy
 
0:36:08.859,0:36:14.260
which is pretty well optimized already
 
0:36:10.540,0:36:15.820
then there's lots of these and very big
 
0:36:14.260,0:36:18.970
things that are happening that have just
 
0:36:15.820,0:36:23.320
completely been missed and in technology
 
0:36:18.970,0:36:25.180
and if Network effects and all and just
 
0:36:23.320,0:36:26.800
generally kind of migrating from atoms
 
0:36:25.180,0:36:31.180
to bits are definitely all a big part of
 
0:36:26.800,0:36:32.830
it so let's talk about something's a
 
0:36:31.180,0:36:35.800
little bit funny which is if you start
 
0:36:32.830,0:36:37.330
to replace government as we were talking
 
0:36:35.800,0:36:40.119
about it and you see it as a monopoly on
 
0:36:37.330,0:36:43.930
violence you notice that very often
 
0:36:40.119,0:36:46.480
there there's a very funny role played
 
0:36:43.930,0:36:48.340
by organized crime of course when we
 
0:36:46.480,0:36:50.770
think about organized crime we tend to
 
0:36:48.340,0:36:52.900
get emotionally excited by it for
 
0:36:50.770,0:36:56.080
whatever reason we make lots of movies
 
0:36:52.900,0:36:58.590
about it it occupies the mind is
 
0:36:56.080,0:37:01.480
something terrifying and alluring and
 
0:36:58.590,0:37:05.800
there's sort of two weird aspects to
 
0:37:01.480,0:37:09.550
organized crime one of which is violence
 
0:37:05.800,0:37:11.950
as a contract enforcement mechanism in
 
0:37:09.550,0:37:14.890
other words you're you're gambling so
 
0:37:11.950,0:37:16.420
you don't have access to the regular
 
0:37:14.890,0:37:20.290
court system now you have a gambling
 
0:37:16.420,0:37:26.320
debt and so just the way our government
 
0:37:20.290,0:37:28.330
would put you in jail if you you know
 
0:37:26.320,0:37:30.130
started doing things you couldn't
 
0:37:28.330,0:37:31.570
fulfill all of your obligations and you
 
0:37:30.130,0:37:34.990
were doing harm to lots of people and
 
0:37:31.570,0:37:37.540
you couldn't be stopped organized crime
 
0:37:34.990,0:37:40.270
has to do somebody can't maintain jails
 
0:37:37.540,0:37:42.700
you know so it can put the hurt on
 
0:37:40.270,0:37:45.220
somebody for means of contract
 
0:37:42.700,0:37:46.930
enforcement so it's it's not looking to
 
0:37:45.220,0:37:48.260
do violent things it's looking to run
 
0:37:46.930,0:37:49.910
illegal businesses
 
0:37:48.260,0:37:52.100
for which there's demand yeah and then
 
0:37:49.910,0:37:53.560
it has a problem of enforcement then
 
0:37:52.100,0:37:57.370
there's another part of it which is
 
0:37:53.560,0:37:59.930
violence as the product so for example
 
0:37:57.370,0:38:01.850
extortion be shame if anything were to
 
0:37:59.930,0:38:04.820
happen to this lovely business that
 
0:38:01.850,0:38:06.920
you're running is a veiled threat pay us
 
0:38:04.820,0:38:09.980
or we're gonna do harm to your business
 
0:38:06.920,0:38:12.340
or you know contract killings and the
 
0:38:09.980,0:38:15.110
like yeah are you worried that
 
0:38:12.340,0:38:18.140
effectively by introducing parallel
 
0:38:15.110,0:38:22.010
structures both in the form of currency
 
0:38:18.140,0:38:24.320
and in the form of contracts smart
 
0:38:22.010,0:38:27.590
contracts that are the cynic wanna and I
 
0:38:24.320,0:38:30.590
guess of the difference between Bitcoin
 
0:38:27.590,0:38:33.410
and aetherium right that the killer app
 
0:38:30.590,0:38:35.090
that is most likely to happen while the
 
0:38:33.410,0:38:37.880
technology is still clunky and
 
0:38:35.090,0:38:42.920
cumbersome and difficult is in the
 
0:38:37.880,0:38:46.340
parallel space that either you are going
 
0:38:42.920,0:38:49.430
to replace organized crime as a place to
 
0:38:46.340,0:38:52.130
do contractual business outside of the
 
0:38:49.430,0:38:54.890
normal scope which could be a benefit
 
0:38:52.130,0:38:56.870
because organized crime still exists and
 
0:38:54.890,0:38:58.880
is a bad thing because it uses violence
 
0:38:56.870,0:39:01.850
and you would use math and in place of
 
0:38:58.880,0:39:07.360
it or that it could actually be used to
 
0:39:01.850,0:39:09.530
facilitate violence by you know using
 
0:39:07.360,0:39:12.290
let's say prediction markets or
 
0:39:09.530,0:39:16.970
something else to induce people to
 
0:39:12.290,0:39:20.120
commit crimes where the committer the
 
0:39:16.970,0:39:21.800
committer of violence has unusual
 
0:39:20.120,0:39:23.120
information about where the violence
 
0:39:21.800,0:39:27.830
will be committed and therefore can
 
0:39:23.120,0:39:30.290
profit from it it's definitely a worry
 
0:39:27.830,0:39:31.670
that have I in make lots of people in
 
0:39:30.290,0:39:33.920
the crypt of space have had since the
 
0:39:31.670,0:39:36.530
beginning though I do feel like at least
 
0:39:33.920,0:39:38.090
so far I've been surprised like it feels
 
0:39:36.530,0:39:41.960
like a less avetis happens than we had
 
0:39:38.090,0:39:44.330
expected the thing now what do you what
 
0:39:41.960,0:39:47.750
accounts for the idea that something
 
0:39:44.330,0:39:51.250
that can be dreamt has mostly not
 
0:39:47.750,0:39:53.810
occurred yes I definitely have yeah
 
0:39:51.250,0:39:54.860
maybe it's a great thing about humans
 
0:39:53.810,0:39:56.330
that we didn't realize that we're not
 
0:39:54.860,0:39:57.800
nearly the horrible people we thought
 
0:39:56.330,0:39:59.750
and I definitely have a couple of
 
0:39:57.800,0:40:01.640
theories about this so one of those
 
0:39:59.750,0:40:07.519
theories is
 
0:40:01.640,0:40:10.849
like basically a lot of things that
 
0:40:07.519,0:40:12.769
people do and especially a lot of things
 
0:40:10.849,0:40:14.390
that people do in the InfoSphere because
 
0:40:12.769,0:40:15.710
like public goods are gonna have
 
0:40:14.390,0:40:18.730
chronically underfunded and all that
 
0:40:15.710,0:40:22.180
rely really heavily on goodwill and so
 
0:40:18.730,0:40:25.160
you know you have goodwill that if
 
0:40:22.180,0:40:27.289
someone if you pay someone to write some
 
0:40:25.160,0:40:29.809
piece piece of software for your website
 
0:40:27.289,0:40:31.880
it's not gonna include some bloggers go
 
0:40:29.809,0:40:33.829
yeah some bug that'll steal people's
 
0:40:31.880,0:40:37.730
money or tell the FBI where you are that
 
0:40:33.829,0:40:39.079
you if you create a system for the
 
0:40:37.730,0:40:42.470
enforcing agreements that they'll
 
0:40:39.079,0:40:45.710
actually get enforced then even like on
 
0:40:42.470,0:40:47.989
internet forums they depend on kind of a
 
0:40:45.710,0:40:51.259
lot of volunteer labor for just things
 
0:40:47.989,0:40:54.980
like moderation and if you create a
 
0:40:51.259,0:40:56.809
group that just goes like fundamentally
 
0:40:54.980,0:40:58.460
against like the vast majority of
 
0:40:56.809,0:41:00.440
people's values then it's just gonna be
 
0:40:58.460,0:41:06.680
hard to find volunteer effort for that
 
0:41:00.440,0:41:08.539
sort of thing and like this so that's
 
0:41:06.680,0:41:11.180
probably the big in the big reason I
 
0:41:08.539,0:41:13.700
think why ik so far we don't really see
 
0:41:11.180,0:41:16.309
a kind of you know complicated like
 
0:41:13.700,0:41:20.059
decentralized structure is being created
 
0:41:16.309,0:41:21.650
to facilitate like black black markets
 
0:41:20.059,0:41:22.819
for killing people and so forth because
 
0:41:21.650,0:41:26.029
let's start off with something more
 
0:41:22.819,0:41:28.130
mundane like a numbers racket right so a
 
0:41:26.029,0:41:31.099
numbers racket would probably be a much
 
0:41:28.130,0:41:32.960
simpler application so what do you mean
 
0:41:31.099,0:41:34.400
by numbers racket here well it's
 
0:41:32.960,0:41:36.650
something that takes the place of a
 
0:41:34.400,0:41:39.619
lottery where some let's say some
 
0:41:36.650,0:41:41.749
naturally occurring number that would be
 
0:41:39.619,0:41:44.329
printed in a newspaper and presumably
 
0:41:41.749,0:41:47.089
nobody has the influence over what
 
0:41:44.329,0:41:49.670
number gets printed right constitutes
 
0:41:47.089,0:41:51.920
the lotto draw lotteries have existed on
 
0:41:49.670,0:41:55.400
watching since the beginning yeah okay
 
0:41:51.920,0:41:57.319
even there's definitely been this kind
 
0:41:55.400,0:41:59.569
of sub community of people that created
 
0:41:57.319,0:42:01.099
these kind of provably faire Ponzi
 
0:41:59.569,0:42:03.019
contracts where and we have a smart
 
0:42:01.099,0:42:05.180
contracts and you can throw money in and
 
0:42:03.019,0:42:07.339
as soon as if you're the nth person to
 
0:42:05.180,0:42:10.069
throw money n su as soon as two n people
 
0:42:07.339,0:42:11.779
throw money and you get like 1.92 back
 
0:42:10.069,0:42:15.739
or something like that and like this was
 
0:42:11.779,0:42:18.200
just a fun game that people have made
 
0:42:15.739,0:42:19.910
and like participated in even fully
 
0:42:18.200,0:42:23.569
knowing what the economics of the thing
 
0:42:19.910,0:42:28.690
are so yeah in thing things like that
 
0:42:23.569,0:42:32.089
have definitely happened so I don't like
 
0:42:28.690,0:42:34.700
though in gambling is the sort of thing
 
0:42:32.089,0:42:36.739
that like there isn't like there isn't
 
0:42:34.700,0:42:38.539
this kind of nine ninety nine percent
 
0:42:36.739,0:42:41.150
plus consensus that it's really horrible
 
0:42:38.539,0:42:42.589
and evil right because like on the one
 
0:42:41.150,0:42:44.059
hand like lots of people want to be on
 
0:42:42.589,0:42:49.089
it but on the other hand people do it
 
0:42:44.059,0:42:51.829
and it's something that I think people
 
0:42:49.089,0:42:53.660
see negative consequences of but at the
 
0:42:51.829,0:42:55.249
same time it's something it is something
 
0:42:53.660,0:42:59.299
that people participate in and enjoy
 
0:42:55.249,0:43:01.549
whereas the I mean if extremely bad
 
0:42:59.299,0:43:04.160
stuff like that's there's definitely
 
0:43:01.549,0:43:06.559
this kind of this kind of barrier
 
0:43:04.160,0:43:08.239
between kind of things that are edgy
 
0:43:06.559,0:43:11.359
versus things that are just so far over
 
0:43:08.239,0:43:15.799
the edge and for things that are and if
 
0:43:11.359,0:43:17.869
so so far over the edge like it is yeah
 
0:43:15.799,0:43:19.220
even with smart contracts and even with
 
0:43:17.869,0:43:21.410
all of those things it's still hard to
 
0:43:19.220,0:43:25.160
coordinate those structures and I think
 
0:43:21.410,0:43:28.430
like the blockchain like the blockchains
 
0:43:25.160,0:43:30.109
inability to directly read facts about
 
0:43:28.430,0:43:33.710
the real world could even be a saving
 
0:43:30.109,0:43:36.410
grace here because like because a
 
0:43:33.710,0:43:38.029
blockchain can't directly read like
 
0:43:36.410,0:43:39.710
whether or not something in the real
 
0:43:38.029,0:43:41.239
world happens it basically me and said
 
0:43:39.710,0:43:42.739
if you want to have some application
 
0:43:41.239,0:43:45.140
whether a prediction market or something
 
0:43:42.739,0:43:46.489
else that does okay so can we say a
 
0:43:45.140,0:43:48.259
little bit more about the probably
 
0:43:46.489,0:43:48.799
intellectual problem that you're you're
 
0:43:48.259,0:43:50.690
in touching
 
0:43:48.799,0:43:52.999
so the idea is that there may be
 
0:43:50.690,0:43:58.130
something that's very perceptible to us
 
0:43:52.999,0:44:00.019
hmm about the real world but we might
 
0:43:58.130,0:44:01.869
naively think well the computer should
 
0:44:00.019,0:44:04.400
be able to tell whether that happened
 
0:44:01.869,0:44:07.460
right or it didn't happen and that
 
0:44:04.400,0:44:11.630
that's a surprisingly difficult thing to
 
0:44:07.460,0:44:15.230
code up reliably so that the interface
 
0:44:11.630,0:44:19.420
between the world of bits and bytes in
 
0:44:15.230,0:44:22.279
the world of otherwise physical reality
 
0:44:19.420,0:44:26.150
which often we don't realize we're
 
0:44:22.279,0:44:27.250
thinking about subjectively hmm that
 
0:44:26.150,0:44:30.430
it's hard to
 
0:44:27.250,0:44:32.530
maintain that interface so that the way
 
0:44:30.430,0:44:34.360
in which the things that have happened
 
0:44:32.530,0:44:36.550
in the real world can be definitely
 
0:44:34.360,0:44:38.830
agreed upon without us any kind of
 
0:44:36.550,0:44:40.930
adjudication inside of the digital right
 
0:44:38.830,0:44:43.270
yeah so I don't know how to say that
 
0:44:40.930,0:44:45.730
well block chains are an a fundamentally
 
0:44:43.270,0:44:47.890
programmatic medium all they see is data
 
0:44:45.730,0:44:50.650
that gets fed into them and what they
 
0:44:47.890,0:44:54.370
can compute as a result of that data and
 
0:44:50.650,0:44:56.920
so if you wants to create a smart
 
0:44:54.370,0:44:59.560
contract that says if someone figures
 
0:44:56.920,0:45:01.330
out how to what the prime factors have a
 
0:44:59.560,0:45:03.370
big number or pay them a reward you can
 
0:45:01.330,0:45:04.510
do that because prime prime factors are
 
0:45:03.370,0:45:07.150
something that you can multiply together
 
0:45:04.510,0:45:10.000
and verify but if he wants to have a
 
0:45:07.150,0:45:13.000
smart contract that says if there's a
 
0:45:10.000,0:45:14.980
hurricane and in Srilanka then pay five
 
0:45:13.000,0:45:17.080
hundred bucks then like you can't do
 
0:45:14.980,0:45:19.390
that on the watch in itself because like
 
0:45:17.080,0:45:20.830
computer code has no idea what
 
0:45:19.390,0:45:23.590
hurricanes are it has no idea what's
 
0:45:20.830,0:45:26.980
real like is nobody but in that case
 
0:45:23.590,0:45:29.710
could have a designation that you know
 
0:45:26.980,0:45:31.180
that the National correct you can you
 
0:45:29.710,0:45:32.830
can get data from third-party sources
 
0:45:31.180,0:45:35.410
and this is the thing that B else turns
 
0:45:32.830,0:45:36.910
it into data exactly this is the the
 
0:45:35.410,0:45:38.560
thing that a lot of applications are
 
0:45:36.910,0:45:41.080
doing but the thing that's important to
 
0:45:38.560,0:45:43.360
keep in mind is that as soon as you do
 
0:45:41.080,0:45:46.210
that a guru or smart contractor has no
 
0:45:43.360,0:45:48.070
longer fully trust us right right so
 
0:45:46.210,0:45:52.900
there's this concept which is like a
 
0:45:48.070,0:45:54.730
utopian concept of a trustless legal
 
0:45:52.900,0:45:57.190
system so that you don't have the
 
0:45:54.730,0:45:59.320
messiness of humans anywhere in the
 
0:45:57.190,0:46:01.810
system and you can have complete faith
 
0:45:59.320,0:46:03.430
and confidence in the contract that
 
0:46:01.810,0:46:07.060
you've struck yeah right and like
 
0:46:03.430,0:46:08.770
outside of prude like basically giving
 
0:46:07.060,0:46:10.870
bounties for solving math problems so
 
0:46:08.770,0:46:12.840
like it's not something that you can
 
0:46:10.870,0:46:17.470
100% achieve so I can't necessarily
 
0:46:12.840,0:46:21.190
ensure my vacation that if if I go all
 
0:46:17.470,0:46:24.790
the way to Argentina and the weather is
 
0:46:21.190,0:46:26.860
terrible it pays out because we can't
 
0:46:24.790,0:46:30.040
agree what terrible weather is right
 
0:46:26.860,0:46:32.230
like you can create structures bit made
 
0:46:30.040,0:46:35.890
out of individual participants they can
 
0:46:32.230,0:46:38.410
try to and if align incentives to get
 
0:46:35.890,0:46:40.690
people to kind of give to give correct
 
0:46:38.410,0:46:41.150
results so and you can have complicated
 
0:46:40.690,0:46:42.619
and if
 
0:46:41.150,0:46:43.970
interruptions involving people giving
 
0:46:42.619,0:46:46.549
different answers and policing each
 
0:46:43.970,0:46:47.960
other and rewarding people who give the
 
0:46:46.549,0:46:49.750
same answer that other people have
 
0:46:47.960,0:46:53.329
committed to and things like this but
 
0:46:49.750,0:46:56.660
like you can only try to approach the
 
0:46:53.329,0:46:58.670
had like the idea love kind of correct
 
0:46:56.660,0:47:02.960
truth like you can never 100% reach it
 
0:46:58.670,0:47:06.799
now you started aetherium in 2014-2015
 
0:47:02.960,0:47:10.039
um started started end of 2013 I mean it
 
0:47:06.799,0:47:12.079
watched in 2015 okay would you say let's
 
0:47:10.039,0:47:15.760
use launch data as an artificial sure
 
0:47:12.079,0:47:21.079
date would you say you are more or less
 
0:47:15.760,0:47:23.240
excited emotionally hmm then you were
 
0:47:21.079,0:47:27.579
when it started you've now been through
 
0:47:23.240,0:47:27.579
so you've logged some miles here hmm I
 
0:47:30.069,0:47:37.640
definitely definitely stay excited I
 
0:47:34.150,0:47:40.880
worked I think the main difference is
 
0:47:37.640,0:47:43.700
kind of more like definitely a kinda
 
0:47:40.880,0:47:46.099
excited in the sense of like four years
 
0:47:43.700,0:47:48.680
well definite and like I kind of as
 
0:47:46.099,0:47:51.349
opposed to indefinite like four years
 
0:47:48.680,0:47:54.140
yeah four years ago was about like hey
 
0:47:51.349,0:47:56.210
let's make this platform to kind of try
 
0:47:54.140,0:47:57.589
really a bunch of really cool things we
 
0:47:56.210,0:48:00.020
have no idea what's gonna happen and
 
0:47:57.589,0:48:02.630
let's just stick it out there and now
 
0:48:00.020,0:48:04.609
like we know things about things and
 
0:48:02.630,0:48:07.910
people are already doing we know things
 
0:48:04.609,0:48:09.740
about things that people wants to do on
 
0:48:07.910,0:48:12.890
wait hands we'll also know more about
 
0:48:09.740,0:48:15.140
Nick what the limitations are and so
 
0:48:12.890,0:48:17.390
instead of just being this kind of
 
0:48:15.140,0:48:19.849
extremely fuzzy dream of like let's
 
0:48:17.390,0:48:22.099
stick smart contracts and algorithms and
 
0:48:19.849,0:48:27.609
kind of trust us if I everything right
 
0:48:22.099,0:48:31.400
it's something that's kind of both more
 
0:48:27.609,0:48:34.160
moderate but also kind of more like
 
0:48:31.400,0:48:36.140
seeming much more like it I like it
 
0:48:34.160,0:48:37.819
actually has a big chance of kind of
 
0:48:36.140,0:48:41.029
transforming the world and of precisely
 
0:48:37.819,0:48:44.180
because that's when moderated to some
 
0:48:41.029,0:48:46.069
extent so you more if I gave you false
 
0:48:44.180,0:48:47.990
three choices and by the way smart
 
0:48:46.069,0:48:50.029
people always hate these things so feel
 
0:48:47.990,0:48:51.589
free to break the model mmm if I gave
 
0:48:50.029,0:48:53.710
you a choice between saying are you
 
0:48:51.589,0:48:55.180
mostly excited about
 
0:48:53.710,0:48:57.730
the technology and the amount of
 
0:48:55.180,0:48:59.410
innovation are you mostly excited about
 
0:48:57.730,0:49:02.830
the business opportunities for yourself
 
0:48:59.410,0:49:06.119
or are you mostly excited about the way
 
0:49:02.830,0:49:08.740
in which this could transform human life
 
0:49:06.119,0:49:11.560
would you be that would that be an easy
 
0:49:08.740,0:49:14.140
call or would you say I reject that
 
0:49:11.560,0:49:19.839
decision tree some mix over the first
 
0:49:14.140,0:49:21.550
and the third mm no I just like the
 
0:49:19.839,0:49:23.619
framing of business opportunities is
 
0:49:21.550,0:49:26.800
definitely kind of never ik like this is
 
0:49:23.619,0:49:28.510
weird I mean the despite and I've even I
 
0:49:26.800,0:49:30.880
get the sense that you don't love money
 
0:49:28.510,0:49:34.869
enough yeah this is true
 
0:49:30.880,0:49:36.910
okay hmm I mean it's weird because I for
 
0:49:34.869,0:49:38.320
a long time you have a lot of it yeah
 
0:49:36.910,0:49:40.540
well I have a lot of it and it's also
 
0:49:38.320,0:49:43.630
even weirder because I like for a long
 
0:49:40.540,0:49:45.700
time I subscribed so this kind of branch
 
0:49:43.630,0:49:47.530
of economics that basically says that
 
0:49:45.700,0:49:49.750
like love of money is like the best
 
0:49:47.530,0:49:55.839
motivation for B vote for people to have
 
0:49:49.750,0:49:58.660
an Randian um well in I'd say make in
 
0:49:55.839,0:50:00.760
that area but it's but I don't get that
 
0:49:58.660,0:50:03.849
I'll be honest I just don't get that
 
0:50:00.760,0:50:05.740
vibe right I mean there's I've
 
0:50:03.849,0:50:08.800
definitely kind of shifted a lot over
 
0:50:05.740,0:50:10.869
the years I think my experience even
 
0:50:08.800,0:50:13.300
within the crypto space itself has kind
 
0:50:10.869,0:50:17.560
of trend and given me a lot of new
 
0:50:13.300,0:50:21.339
information to work with more like the
 
0:50:17.560,0:50:24.000
this basically and then this goes back
 
0:50:21.339,0:50:26.680
to this kind of cryptocurrencies as a
 
0:50:24.000,0:50:33.940
microcosm of wider society thing right
 
0:50:26.680,0:50:37.030
like if you're like basically any like
 
0:50:33.940,0:50:38.859
any movements regardless of like what it
 
0:50:37.030,0:50:40.330
what the movement is for what its goals
 
0:50:38.859,0:50:42.339
are to be succeeded needs to be
 
0:50:40.330,0:50:43.900
sufficiently big and once something is
 
0:50:42.339,0:50:45.880
sufficiently big it needs to have
 
0:50:43.900,0:50:47.410
internal structure to a coordinated
 
0:50:45.880,0:50:49.960
initially of its objectives which means
 
0:50:47.410,0:50:52.270
that it suffers from governance issues
 
0:50:49.960,0:50:55.869
it suffers from public goods the issue
 
0:50:52.270,0:50:58.750
is it suffers from conflicts with
 
0:50:55.869,0:51:01.780
adjacent movements and suffers from
 
0:50:58.750,0:51:04.720
conflicts between its own values and its
 
0:51:01.780,0:51:06.940
and its own desire to succeed and so on
 
0:51:04.720,0:51:10.270
and so forth and like it needs to
 
0:51:06.940,0:51:12.849
come up with ways to answer like
 
0:51:10.270,0:51:14.109
basically almost the same kinds of hard
 
0:51:12.849,0:51:16.960
problems at the world as a whole is
 
0:51:14.109,0:51:19.119
working on well you know it's
 
0:51:16.960,0:51:22.839
interesting when I look at this sort of
 
0:51:19.119,0:51:24.700
world of people maybe had an epicenter
 
0:51:22.839,0:51:27.849
in the Bay Area though I think it's less
 
0:51:24.700,0:51:29.440
true now we're trying to figure out what
 
0:51:27.849,0:51:34.650
is the future and how do we get there
 
0:51:29.440,0:51:37.380
there's a very clear sense that people's
 
0:51:34.650,0:51:40.920
creativity and their intelligence is
 
0:51:37.380,0:51:44.170
correlated with their financial success
 
0:51:40.920,0:51:46.240
but it's not very tight and so there's
 
0:51:44.170,0:51:48.970
like an embarrassment that well that
 
0:51:46.240,0:51:50.920
person is super amazing and then mm-hmm
 
0:51:48.970,0:51:53.770
not doing all that well this person
 
0:51:50.920,0:51:56.410
somehow metabolizing amend this amount
 
0:51:53.770,0:51:58.359
this is something that I've definitely
 
0:51:56.410,0:52:01.150
have realized just from one of my
 
0:51:58.359,0:52:03.250
travels like I've interacted with a lot
 
0:52:01.150,0:52:04.750
of kind of super famous people in
 
0:52:03.250,0:52:07.059
different kinds of positions which
 
0:52:04.750,0:52:08.920
includes like some world leaders and
 
0:52:07.059,0:52:13.240
includes some kind of leaders of like
 
0:52:08.920,0:52:16.390
fields in cryptography and it in you
 
0:52:13.240,0:52:19.690
realize that like people in these
 
0:52:16.390,0:52:22.210
positions they are impressive but
 
0:52:19.690,0:52:24.700
they're not like super amazing godlike
 
0:52:22.210,0:52:26.109
impressive right something tomorrow some
 
0:52:24.700,0:52:27.849
of them are but then there's also super
 
0:52:26.109,0:52:29.559
amazing godlike impressive people that
 
0:52:27.849,0:52:31.210
just like don't get her to get that much
 
0:52:29.559,0:52:34.210
shit I don't know what I'm trying to get
 
0:52:31.210,0:52:37.630
at I think about like if you hang around
 
0:52:34.210,0:52:39.279
with musicians very often you'll have
 
0:52:37.630,0:52:41.170
some buddies a super famous musicians
 
0:52:39.279,0:52:42.069
and you want to who's really good and
 
0:52:41.170,0:52:45.730
they'll tell you some of you've never
 
0:52:42.069,0:52:50.470
heard of and musician's musician exactly
 
0:52:45.730,0:52:53.589
this yes right and so you know if I if I
 
0:52:50.470,0:52:56.109
gave the name of people who are famous
 
0:52:53.589,0:52:57.970
for being let's say physicists they're
 
0:52:56.109,0:52:59.890
very often the people on television as
 
0:52:57.970,0:53:02.260
physicists mm-hmm but they would all
 
0:52:59.890,0:53:03.460
point to some guy who doesn't give a lot
 
0:53:02.260,0:53:05.950
of interviews and say well that's the
 
0:53:03.460,0:53:10.890
top guy exactly like basically the
 
0:53:05.950,0:53:14.440
social status like is predicted by
 
0:53:10.890,0:53:17.529
confidence multiplied by like basically
 
0:53:14.440,0:53:19.299
publicity skill and that's half
 
0:53:17.529,0:53:20.590
correlated with competence for obvious
 
0:53:19.299,0:53:21.730
reasons right like those
 
0:53:20.590,0:53:22.930
people also know the people that have
 
0:53:21.730,0:53:23.920
the real confidence and that's one of
 
0:53:22.930,0:53:25.990
the things that I've always found really
 
0:53:23.920,0:53:28.900
interesting about people who have this
 
0:53:25.990,0:53:32.860
diehard belief that markets produce
 
0:53:28.900,0:53:36.250
justice which is I do think that success
 
0:53:32.860,0:53:41.950
in markets is somewhat correlated or has
 
0:53:36.250,0:53:44.050
been with things like productivity but
 
0:53:41.950,0:53:46.270
it's also correlated sometimes with how
 
0:53:44.050,0:53:48.340
predatory somebody can be or you know
 
0:53:46.270,0:53:51.460
how lucky they happen to be at a
 
0:53:48.340,0:53:55.600
particular moment and one of the
 
0:53:51.460,0:53:57.130
questions that I have is if you're
 
0:53:55.600,0:53:59.170
really interested in innovation which is
 
0:53:57.130,0:54:03.250
what I sort of pick up is you know the
 
0:53:59.170,0:54:06.910
main things how does something like
 
0:54:03.250,0:54:10.660
aetherium give us a possibility to
 
0:54:06.910,0:54:12.760
revitalize innovation after what many of
 
0:54:10.660,0:54:15.900
us consider a period of relative
 
0:54:12.760,0:54:17.740
stagnancy outside of the areas of
 
0:54:15.900,0:54:21.310
computation communication which
 
0:54:17.740,0:54:24.820
everybody knows have exploded hmm do you
 
0:54:21.310,0:54:30.660
think about how if cerium can mediate a
 
0:54:24.820,0:54:30.660
new Renaissance a new generative age
 
0:54:31.260,0:54:37.990
about it a little bit definitely and I
 
0:54:34.060,0:54:42.970
think I mean there's ten of etherium as
 
0:54:37.990,0:54:44.650
a platform for experiments in governance
 
0:54:42.970,0:54:47.740
and public goods funding is one thing I
 
0:54:44.650,0:54:50.350
mentioned and education is another thing
 
0:54:47.740,0:54:52.360
that I end of talk about in the end
 
0:54:50.350,0:54:54.400
obviously we do I mean I have a lot of
 
0:54:52.360,0:54:58.960
these blog posts on Vitalik dossier in
 
0:54:54.400,0:55:00.970
other forums and like they're one of the
 
0:54:58.960,0:55:04.510
big challenges that a for example is
 
0:55:00.970,0:55:06.430
that like for in and of Internet
 
0:55:04.510,0:55:08.170
educational resources in general there's
 
0:55:06.430,0:55:10.900
basically two kinds right there's like
 
0:55:08.170,0:55:13.270
papers and I Wikipedia and like
 
0:55:10.900,0:55:14.950
basically things that are technically
 
0:55:13.270,0:55:17.590
accurate but they're just not core ibly
 
0:55:14.950,0:55:19.510
not understand understandable at all and
 
0:55:17.590,0:55:21.490
we should not be forcing people to even
 
0:55:19.510,0:55:23.650
try reading them and then there's pops a
 
0:55:21.490,0:55:26.080
literature which is very accessible but
 
0:55:23.650,0:55:30.280
it's often just actively wrong in really
 
0:55:26.080,0:55:31.720
horrible ways and okay I personally even
 
0:55:30.280,0:55:33.370
before a theorem like I did Bitcoin
 
0:55:31.720,0:55:34.420
magazine for example like I've always
 
0:55:33.370,0:55:37.779
tried
 
0:55:34.420,0:55:41.410
to find this kind of middle gap this way
 
0:55:37.779,0:55:43.839
to explain can take concepts that are
 
0:55:41.410,0:55:45.700
technical and if expand them to a bride
 
0:55:43.839,0:55:48.519
a broader audience so they are more
 
0:55:45.700,0:55:51.569
accessible and like this to me has been
 
0:55:48.519,0:55:53.589
important in part because like I view
 
0:55:51.569,0:55:55.990
accessibility of information about the
 
0:55:53.589,0:55:58.210
technology as a precondition for even
 
0:55:55.990,0:55:59.950
the decentralization of the space like
 
0:55:58.210,0:56:01.720
if the thing technically runs on fifty
 
0:55:59.950,0:56:03.039
thousand computers but only forty two
 
0:56:01.720,0:56:04.660
people know how it works and your
 
0:56:03.039,0:56:07.960
decentralization indexes and fifty
 
0:56:04.660,0:56:10.450
thousand it's 42 you know and so there's
 
0:56:07.960,0:56:15.549
a very nice point yeah and so trying to
 
0:56:10.450,0:56:17.140
kind of improve like even how we in the
 
0:56:15.549,0:56:20.019
etherium community and if work on
 
0:56:17.140,0:56:23.470
innovation internally but so those are
 
0:56:20.019,0:56:27.700
kind of things that and if that happened
 
0:56:23.470,0:56:29.529
in blockchains as a novella as a lab for
 
0:56:27.700,0:56:31.680
trying out new things kind of first for
 
0:56:29.529,0:56:33.549
the blockchain space and then
 
0:56:31.680,0:56:35.890
potentially export it to other things
 
0:56:33.549,0:56:38.559
and then we can also look at head of
 
0:56:35.890,0:56:41.799
wall chains as something that can be
 
0:56:38.559,0:56:45.490
used to improve and create better
 
0:56:41.799,0:56:48.069
institutions so like one of the etherium
 
0:56:45.490,0:56:50.589
foundations researchers vlad sam fear he
 
0:56:48.069,0:56:51.940
actually got into aetherium because he
 
0:56:50.589,0:56:55.720
was working at how to improve academic
 
0:56:51.940,0:56:57.130
publishing and like he saw things like
 
0:56:55.720,0:56:59.890
you know the existing peer review
 
0:56:57.130,0:57:01.839
mechanisms and how they were just a very
 
0:56:59.890,0:57:05.259
flawed in a bunch of ways and he thought
 
0:57:01.839,0:57:07.450
that like hey here's potentially apply
 
0:57:05.259,0:57:09.309
form that we could use to build
 
0:57:07.450,0:57:12.369
something that does better and like
 
0:57:09.309,0:57:15.039
that's one of his core interests and why
 
0:57:12.369,0:57:17.410
he is even continuing to work on the
 
0:57:15.039,0:57:20.170
technology you know i hadn't understood
 
0:57:17.410,0:57:22.750
how insiders viewed peer review in an
 
0:57:20.170,0:57:25.569
academic context until he finance
 
0:57:22.750,0:57:28.329
professor got drunk at a party and said
 
0:57:25.569,0:57:31.029
you know that guy who's harassing you
 
0:57:28.329,0:57:32.710
and your research in finance you don't
 
0:57:31.029,0:57:34.660
know why he's doing i said well why do
 
0:57:32.710,0:57:37.119
you think he's doing so i know he says
 
0:57:34.660,0:57:40.210
we've created a system where our fees
 
0:57:37.119,0:57:44.380
are sky-high to consult and we do this
 
0:57:40.210,0:57:46.539
by making the number of professors in
 
0:57:44.380,0:57:47.400
our field small by controlling peer
 
0:57:46.539,0:57:49.079
review
 
0:57:47.400,0:57:50.670
and so that effectively we are at
 
0:57:49.079,0:57:54.359
conspiracy in restraint like this guy's
 
0:57:50.670,0:57:56.130
just telling me straight out that this
 
0:57:54.359,0:57:58.500
is a gating function to keep their
 
0:57:56.130,0:58:00.569
consulting fees high and that this guy
 
0:57:58.500,0:58:02.609
is gonna do everything that they tell
 
0:58:00.569,0:58:04.109
him to do because otherwise he can't
 
0:58:02.609,0:58:07.200
come into the club and charge these
 
0:58:04.109,0:58:09.869
rates that sounds about right
 
0:58:07.200,0:58:11.339
right so him that one of the app another
 
0:58:09.869,0:58:13.559
killer application so you have one
 
0:58:11.339,0:58:15.569
potential suite of applications which
 
0:58:13.559,0:58:18.359
have to do with facilitating illegality
 
0:58:15.569,0:58:20.910
some of that might regard will result in
 
0:58:18.359,0:58:24.180
net reduction of harm because you could
 
0:58:20.910,0:58:27.900
replace violence with math yes on the
 
0:58:24.180,0:58:31.410
other hand a place where you could have
 
0:58:27.900,0:58:36.779
a really positive effect is political
 
0:58:31.410,0:58:40.980
economy where by removing the human
 
0:58:36.779,0:58:43.289
ability to act badly you effectively
 
0:58:40.980,0:58:47.880
create a much fairer more representative
 
0:58:43.289,0:58:50.520
world exactly you know what do we do so
 
0:58:47.880,0:58:52.260
you have an interest in in the two
 
0:58:50.520,0:58:55.440
fields that I find Wikipedia can't
 
0:58:52.260,0:58:58.470
explain to any normal human being our
 
0:58:55.440,0:59:00.359
theoretical math and physics even
 
0:58:58.470,0:59:01.829
biology you can sort of guess what's
 
0:59:00.359,0:59:04.950
going on because you have something
 
0:59:01.829,0:59:07.260
concrete to the area but even biology
 
0:59:04.950,0:59:08.609
like you got a learn math the deeply
 
0:59:07.260,0:59:11.010
grok it because otherwise you're just
 
0:59:08.609,0:59:14.910
memorizing like names of chemicals well
 
0:59:11.010,0:59:19.260
but you could my here I have a PhD in
 
0:59:14.910,0:59:22.349
math if I try to read a math paper one
 
0:59:19.260,0:59:25.319
or two fields over from my own field
 
0:59:22.349,0:59:27.420
right I will do less well with it than
 
0:59:25.319,0:59:29.119
if I read a biology paper and even
 
0:59:27.420,0:59:32.220
though I've taken no class in biology
 
0:59:29.119,0:59:35.880
that sounds right yeah yeah like there's
 
0:59:32.220,0:59:38.299
a difference between the level of math
 
0:59:35.880,0:59:41.010
that you have to know it's you just
 
0:59:38.299,0:59:44.039
because it's important for you as a
 
0:59:41.010,0:59:45.720
philosopher and then and like that's
 
0:59:44.039,0:59:47.760
about the level of math that I think you
 
0:59:45.720,0:59:49.319
need even to be good at biology to be
 
0:59:47.760,0:59:52.410
good at economics to be good at a lot of
 
0:59:49.319,0:59:54.420
things right it's understanding like
 
0:59:52.410,0:59:57.119
principles even things like for example
 
0:59:54.420,0:59:59.460
if you have a trade-off between x and y
 
0:59:57.119,1:00:01.240
and right now you're optimizing entirely
 
0:59:59.460,1:00:03.490
for x and it's a smooth curve
 
1:00:01.240,1:00:04.900
then if he wants a little bit of Y then
 
1:00:03.490,1:00:06.940
you can get your first bit of Y at
 
1:00:04.900,1:00:10.030
almost like zero cost of X right and
 
1:00:06.940,1:00:12.460
that's just a prop like it's a property
 
1:00:10.030,1:00:13.960
of continuous functions that look from
 
1:00:12.460,1:00:16.960
the maximum of the derivative starts at
 
1:00:13.960,1:00:19.960
zero you know like if you kind of just
 
1:00:16.960,1:00:22.180
deeply kind of mentally grok about like
 
1:00:19.960,1:00:23.560
a couple hundred of these facts the way
 
1:00:22.180,1:00:25.810
you're deeply kind of mentally grow out
 
1:00:23.560,1:00:28.210
like how to walk then like you get a lot
 
1:00:25.810,1:00:30.130
but then from there there's also like
 
1:00:28.210,1:00:32.860
the frontiers and often I mean the
 
1:00:30.130,1:00:34.210
frontiers were most important well so
 
1:00:32.860,1:00:36.850
here's a weird thing I don't know how to
 
1:00:34.210,1:00:37.750
bring up when I try to understand crypto
 
1:00:36.850,1:00:40.680
as a space
 
1:00:37.750,1:00:43.600
I'm always confronted by how incredibly
 
1:00:40.680,1:00:46.390
Byzantine and impossible it is to
 
1:00:43.600,1:00:48.369
understand all of the acronyms all of
 
1:00:46.390,1:00:53.440
the sub pieces of history I mean it's an
 
1:00:48.369,1:00:56.650
incredibly fragmented experience in
 
1:00:53.440,1:01:02.280
which I spend a long period of time just
 
1:00:56.650,1:01:05.290
feeling moronic isn't it odd that like
 
1:01:02.280,1:01:07.240
etherium itself suffers from this this
 
1:01:05.290,1:01:09.420
problem it's hard to know what's going
 
1:01:07.240,1:01:12.580
on yeah it's definitely something that
 
1:01:09.420,1:01:15.220
we wants to fix so if I mean if you ever
 
1:01:12.580,1:01:16.540
have suggestions on like what
 
1:01:15.220,1:01:18.010
specifically we could make more
 
1:01:16.540,1:01:21.520
understandable I'm always happy to hear
 
1:01:18.010,1:01:23.700
those fantastic now one thing that I
 
1:01:21.520,1:01:27.190
think is really interesting is this
 
1:01:23.700,1:01:30.790
episode that occurred in the etherium
 
1:01:27.190,1:01:35.440
space in which you are faced with a very
 
1:01:30.790,1:01:40.000
serious question of leadership having to
 
1:01:35.440,1:01:42.910
do with an emergency that you could have
 
1:01:40.000,1:01:45.100
either allowed to follow the rules that
 
1:01:42.910,1:01:48.850
had been previously specified in some
 
1:01:45.100,1:01:50.650
sense or could where you could interject
 
1:01:48.850,1:01:53.140
a certain amount of human intervention
 
1:01:50.650,1:01:57.130
but thereby letting people know that
 
1:01:53.140,1:01:59.830
this was to some extent not mediated
 
1:01:57.130,1:02:01.270
only by rules and computers can you can
 
1:01:59.830,1:02:05.380
you say a little bit about this famous
 
1:02:01.270,1:02:07.660
incident and sure so in 2016 there was
 
1:02:05.380,1:02:11.050
this smart contract that a group called
 
1:02:07.660,1:02:13.050
salokya launched called the dao and do
 
1:02:11.050,1:02:15.040
stands for a decentralized autonomous
 
1:02:13.050,1:02:17.110
organization and such our my team
 
1:02:15.040,1:02:19.840
with about three years before and it
 
1:02:17.110,1:02:21.580
basically means that maybe you can have
 
1:02:19.840,1:02:24.850
a smart contract to this computer
 
1:02:21.580,1:02:27.130
program that controls digital assets and
 
1:02:24.850,1:02:30.280
if encode a set of rules for an
 
1:02:27.130,1:02:31.930
organization and like you can use this
 
1:02:30.280,1:02:33.580
kind of smart contract basically as a
 
1:02:31.930,1:02:36.430
replacement for things like companies
 
1:02:33.580,1:02:39.970
and so some I could decide to launch a
 
1:02:36.430,1:02:42.610
Dao and their Dao was intended to be
 
1:02:39.970,1:02:47.080
basically a decentralized VC fund so
 
1:02:42.610,1:02:48.910
people could apply the Dao would vote on
 
1:02:47.080,1:02:51.610
which projects were worth investing in
 
1:02:48.910,1:02:57.130
so leaderless rule-based yeah and
 
1:02:51.610,1:02:59.740
virtual exactly know is they hit hit all
 
1:02:57.130,1:03:02.320
the cypherpunk nodes that they're in the
 
1:02:59.740,1:03:05.710
right place okay and the thing launched
 
1:03:02.320,1:03:08.200
and we were all expecting it during its
 
1:03:05.710,1:03:10.600
kind of initial fundraising phase which
 
1:03:08.200,1:03:12.730
was also like an open public blockchain
 
1:03:10.600,1:03:15.430
process and to maybe get five million
 
1:03:12.730,1:03:18.130
dollars but then it got five and it got
 
1:03:15.430,1:03:19.900
ten and I got twenty I got fifty and a
 
1:03:18.130,1:03:23.950
hundred and then the price of youth went
 
1:03:19.900,1:03:26.710
up and I got two hundred and then when I
 
1:03:23.950,1:03:29.130
was sitting at AF friends was it all
 
1:03:26.710,1:03:31.990
alarming that it was so successful
 
1:03:29.130,1:03:33.970
after the 50 mark I definitely have
 
1:03:31.990,1:03:35.920
switched from excitement's to deep
 
1:03:33.970,1:03:38.050
apprehension but you know it's a
 
1:03:35.920,1:03:41.530
contract did you let on that that you
 
1:03:38.050,1:03:45.490
were feeling that way a bit okay yeah so
 
1:03:41.530,1:03:47.650
on a June 17th 2016 and when I was in
 
1:03:45.490,1:03:52.930
Shanghai at a a friend's apartment and
 
1:03:47.650,1:03:57.670
it was about fifteen thirty something in
 
1:03:52.930,1:04:00.160
the afternoon I saw a message in one of
 
1:03:57.670,1:04:02.350
the Skype chats that it was that I was
 
1:04:00.160,1:04:03.970
in and someone basically was saying hey
 
1:04:02.350,1:04:05.350
guys look at the Dow it seems like
 
1:04:03.970,1:04:08.770
there's some money coming out of it and
 
1:04:05.350,1:04:12.070
so I checked on the public black
 
1:04:08.770,1:04:14.350
Explorer on the blockchain and I saw oh
 
1:04:12.070,1:04:16.570
look that it seems like about two
 
1:04:14.350,1:04:19.420
million dollar has actually already been
 
1:04:16.570,1:04:21.670
removed from the Dow and more ethos and
 
1:04:19.420,1:04:24.370
of slowly being drained over time and so
 
1:04:21.670,1:04:26.880
I pinged the core developers and I asked
 
1:04:24.370,1:04:30.060
hey is this normal and
 
1:04:26.880,1:04:31.710
at first I was thinking okay the
 
1:04:30.060,1:04:33.510
alternative is unthinkable there has to
 
1:04:31.710,1:04:36.660
be a reasonable explanation for this
 
1:04:33.510,1:04:41.400
and so you were locked into some sort of
 
1:04:36.660,1:04:44.400
denial for at the beginning yes and the
 
1:04:41.400,1:04:46.710
developers looked at it and over the
 
1:04:44.400,1:04:48.540
next half-hour as more and more people
 
1:04:46.710,1:04:50.580
came online and started chattering with
 
1:04:48.540,1:04:54.350
each other it became clear that the
 
1:04:50.580,1:04:57.330
unthinkable has actually happened and I
 
1:04:54.350,1:05:01.470
actually burned about 20 of my own if
 
1:04:57.330,1:05:03.480
like basically just tossing the ethereum
 
1:05:01.470,1:05:05.670
blockchain in itself and just spamming
 
1:05:03.480,1:05:07.680
it with transactions to try to and if so
 
1:05:05.670,1:05:09.090
low the attacker I've seen is denial of
 
1:05:07.680,1:05:10.620
service yeah yeah just spam the
 
1:05:09.090,1:05:13.020
blockchain with dren that got all of my
 
1:05:10.620,1:05:14.970
listeners will know the terms okay so
 
1:05:13.020,1:05:16.260
that the attackers transactions could
 
1:05:14.970,1:05:17.850
not get in as quickly because the
 
1:05:16.260,1:05:20.100
attackers transact the attacker could
 
1:05:17.850,1:05:21.720
only withdraw something like a couple
 
1:05:20.100,1:05:24.210
hundred East with every transaction so
 
1:05:21.720,1:05:26.970
it was a slow process like in the hopes
 
1:05:24.210,1:05:29.130
that the developers would find some way
 
1:05:26.970,1:05:30.990
to ply was an intentional inefficiency
 
1:05:29.130,1:05:32.820
or was just that it was it was not
 
1:05:30.990,1:05:34.500
intentional so in some weird way the
 
1:05:32.820,1:05:35.940
inefficiency was a good thing yes it
 
1:05:34.500,1:05:37.620
gets even weirder there was an even
 
1:05:35.940,1:05:39.560
bigger and efficiency that would that
 
1:05:37.620,1:05:43.890
would prove to be an even better thing
 
1:05:39.560,1:05:46.290
so but then the developers however did
 
1:05:43.890,1:05:48.360
not find a way to plug the hole but the
 
1:05:46.290,1:05:50.730
attacker voluntarily stopped after
 
1:05:48.360,1:05:53.550
stealing about 4 million eath from the
 
1:05:50.730,1:05:55.740
dough but in any case the this is a
 
1:05:53.550,1:05:58.680
second in efficiency it voluntarily
 
1:05:55.740,1:06:01.200
stopped yeah there was a request made no
 
1:05:58.680,1:06:06.900
no as in the attacker just stopped ok
 
1:06:01.200,1:06:07.680
and and so here's the second and bigger
 
1:06:06.900,1:06:10.710
in efficiency
 
1:06:07.680,1:06:13.170
the money that was the attacker took out
 
1:06:10.710,1:06:14.600
the four million eighth it did not go
 
1:06:13.170,1:06:17.130
into the attacker swallow it immediately
 
1:06:14.600,1:06:20.550
instead it went into a child smart
 
1:06:17.130,1:06:22.050
contract and only after 35 days could
 
1:06:20.550,1:06:24.450
the attacker action we take that money
 
1:06:22.050,1:06:27.030
out and this was child smart contract
 
1:06:24.450,1:06:30.120
you mean a separate smart contract that
 
1:06:27.030,1:06:33.750
was created through a function call of
 
1:06:30.120,1:06:36.420
the main Dao smart contract ok so this
 
1:06:33.750,1:06:39.470
was also not intended right it was just
 
1:06:36.420,1:06:40.890
like a random quirk of this of fate that
 
1:06:39.470,1:06:43.080
there was this
 
1:06:40.890,1:06:44.940
big bug that was the biggest smart
 
1:06:43.080,1:06:47.910
contract theft in history up until that
 
1:06:44.940,1:06:50.280
point and it put the money into this
 
1:06:47.910,1:06:52.410
convenient box were just a conveniently
 
1:06:50.280,1:06:57.180
locked for 35 days where everyone could
 
1:06:52.410,1:07:00.540
stare and look at it oh yeah and the
 
1:06:57.180,1:07:02.580
soon after this there were calls
 
1:07:00.540,1:07:04.560
happening between core developers and
 
1:07:02.580,1:07:07.950
the proposal to remedy the situation
 
1:07:04.560,1:07:10.320
with a blockchain fork I came into play
 
1:07:07.950,1:07:12.840
right so basically what happened here is
 
1:07:10.320,1:07:15.120
the it was a blockchain fork an
 
1:07:12.840,1:07:19.230
emotional issue for this community yeah
 
1:07:15.120,1:07:20.850
so why is it so what I guess first of
 
1:07:19.230,1:07:24.150
all what is it exactly so explain what
 
1:07:20.850,1:07:25.830
what would happen so in general a
 
1:07:24.150,1:07:29.040
blockchain forcus on normal process
 
1:07:25.830,1:07:30.930
right you have an upgrade and the
 
1:07:29.040,1:07:33.720
developers of the etherium clients
 
1:07:30.930,1:07:36.390
implement code that basically says after
 
1:07:33.720,1:07:38.790
block number four three seven zero zero
 
1:07:36.390,1:07:40.170
zero zero stop processing blocks
 
1:07:38.790,1:07:41.640
according to the old rules start
 
1:07:40.170,1:07:43.260
processing blocks according to the new
 
1:07:41.640,1:07:47.250
rules which have extra features attached
 
1:07:43.260,1:07:53.000
and where blocks are just said packages
 
1:07:47.250,1:07:56.940
of transactions okay and B's and so ever
 
1:07:53.000,1:07:59.100
before this sub I know these code
 
1:07:56.940,1:08:01.110
patches are formally proposed there is
 
1:07:59.100,1:08:02.730
this month-long period of mini month
 
1:08:01.110,1:08:05.070
long period of deliberation we are
 
1:08:02.730,1:08:08.130
changes or proposed people discuss them
 
1:08:05.070,1:08:09.960
people talk about them and generally
 
1:08:08.130,1:08:12.450
it's agreed that these changes are good
 
1:08:09.960,1:08:14.160
and so people just go and download the
 
1:08:12.450,1:08:16.470
code and because everyone's downloaded
 
1:08:14.160,1:08:18.150
the code the blockchain after block four
 
1:08:16.470,1:08:19.320
three seven zero zero zero zero follows
 
1:08:18.150,1:08:22.290
these difference in better it's a very
 
1:08:19.320,1:08:24.300
warm and very human process yeah called
 
1:08:22.290,1:08:29.130
logic of a machine exactly
 
1:08:24.300,1:08:31.920
and so the dal Fork
 
1:08:29.130,1:08:34.350
it was also a fork it was also a code
 
1:08:31.920,1:08:38.550
change implemented by the developers of
 
1:08:34.350,1:08:41.610
the clients that is it was pushed out
 
1:08:38.550,1:08:43.530
through a new version of the different
 
1:08:41.610,1:08:45.900
clients that people could download and
 
1:08:43.530,1:08:49.320
users went ahead and voluntarily
 
1:08:45.900,1:08:51.000
downloaded it and it would basically
 
1:08:49.320,1:08:52.680
change the rules of the blockchain
 
1:08:51.000,1:08:53.849
except instead of changing them
 
1:08:52.680,1:08:55.859
permanently
 
1:08:53.849,1:08:58.079
it would only do what a single one time
 
1:08:55.859,1:09:01.529
change and the single one time change
 
1:08:58.079,1:09:03.509
basically said during block one one nine
 
1:09:01.529,1:09:06.599
two zero zero zero zero before
 
1:09:03.509,1:09:09.989
processing any transactions take the
 
1:09:06.599,1:09:11.790
ether that stuck in the this child
 
1:09:09.989,1:09:13.739
contract and move it into another
 
1:09:11.790,1:09:17.819
contract that could then basically
 
1:09:13.739,1:09:20.339
refund it all to the victims and so this
 
1:09:17.819,1:09:22.859
is a very kind of manual intervention
 
1:09:20.339,1:09:25.310
right it basically says like we all
 
1:09:22.859,1:09:27.420
agree it's a run code that just
 
1:09:25.310,1:09:29.159
irregularly takes this money and just
 
1:09:27.420,1:09:32.339
reassigns it so that's other thing so
 
1:09:29.159,1:09:34.469
the the it's very weird because you know
 
1:09:32.339,1:09:37.020
we always think in like a sci-fi movie
 
1:09:34.469,1:09:39.810
that some thing that you think is human
 
1:09:37.020,1:09:42.329
would rip off its mask and reveal itself
 
1:09:39.810,1:09:44.520
to be a computer and this is the reverse
 
1:09:42.329,1:09:47.609
exactly pewter face is ripped off
 
1:09:44.520,1:09:50.880
revealing humans behind this this
 
1:09:47.609,1:09:53.099
technological stack yes and I mean
 
1:09:50.880,1:09:56.730
ultimately like people talk about head
 
1:09:53.099,1:09:58.889
of blockchain immutability and like this
 
1:09:56.730,1:10:00.900
is this idea that basically you're not
 
1:09:58.889,1:10:03.119
supposed to do this sort of thing and
 
1:10:00.900,1:10:05.909
where does that supposed to come from
 
1:10:03.119,1:10:08.010
exactly it so like there is there's
 
1:10:05.909,1:10:09.810
definitely a sense in which it exists
 
1:10:08.010,1:10:11.190
technologically because like actually
 
1:10:09.810,1:10:14.369
pulling off one of these Forks is
 
1:10:11.190,1:10:16.139
incredibly hard and for example if it
 
1:10:14.369,1:10:18.300
was not the case that the money was
 
1:10:16.139,1:10:20.550
conveniently stuck there and one nice
 
1:10:18.300,1:10:22.079
little address for 35 days it would
 
1:10:20.550,1:10:24.179
basically not have been possible to do
 
1:10:22.079,1:10:26.280
it right because when as soon as you
 
1:10:24.179,1:10:27.719
announced this protocol change that says
 
1:10:26.280,1:10:29.550
we're gonna take money out of CR put it
 
1:10:27.719,1:10:30.840
in there the attacker could just move
 
1:10:29.550,1:10:33.510
the money from there to a different
 
1:10:30.840,1:10:34.770
address and basically you play this
 
1:10:33.510,1:10:37.349
cat-and-mouse game and the attacker
 
1:10:34.770,1:10:39.989
could win but sometimes there is this
 
1:10:37.349,1:10:41.940
possibility where you up so that we can
 
1:10:39.989,1:10:44.820
and just like do these interventions and
 
1:10:41.940,1:10:46.199
you can just decide to stop writing this
 
1:10:44.820,1:10:50.159
code and start running this other code
 
1:10:46.199,1:10:52.500
and the only reason why this has not
 
1:10:50.159,1:10:54.929
done more frequently is basically
 
1:10:52.500,1:10:57.060
because their existing norms right in
 
1:10:54.929,1:10:58.770
their existing norms in the blockchain
 
1:10:57.060,1:11:00.510
community of lads iam fear of the
 
1:10:58.770,1:11:03.150
researcher I mentioned before and if
 
1:11:00.510,1:11:05.849
calls them a Szabo's Ally and named
 
1:11:03.150,1:11:07.409
after nick szabo and and nick szabo
 
1:11:05.849,1:11:08.900
actually just likes the moniker
 
1:11:07.409,1:11:10.769
like it is a pretty accurate
 
1:11:08.900,1:11:12.900
representation of kind of his beliefs
 
1:11:10.769,1:11:15.110
witches and the beliefs of many in the
 
1:11:12.900,1:11:18.869
crypto community which is basically that
 
1:11:15.110,1:11:21.630
like even though it technically is code
 
1:11:18.869,1:11:24.840
run by humans we should act as though it
 
1:11:21.630,1:11:27.059
is code not run by humans and look
 
1:11:24.840,1:11:29.249
because it is digital gold right gold is
 
1:11:27.059,1:11:30.479
not run by humans gold is gold and so if
 
1:11:29.249,1:11:32.550
we want to make something that is a
 
1:11:30.479,1:11:34.289
light gold then even though we're
 
1:11:32.550,1:11:35.939
unfortunately stuck with this thing run
 
1:11:34.289,1:11:38.459
by humans we should what try as hard as
 
1:11:35.939,1:11:40.260
we can to pretend it's not and like this
 
1:11:38.459,1:11:42.719
was the ideology of a lot of people in
 
1:11:40.260,1:11:46.260
this space and the dal fork very much
 
1:11:42.719,1:11:50.789
went against this ideology and so even
 
1:11:46.260,1:11:52.409
though in my opinion like having norms
 
1:11:50.789,1:11:54.300
that you can't just like go and edit
 
1:11:52.409,1:11:57.150
whatever you want is valuable but like
 
1:11:54.300,1:11:58.769
when so such a large fraction of the
 
1:11:57.150,1:12:00.869
ecosystem is at stake it's worth
 
1:11:58.769,1:12:02.969
rethinking things but like other people
 
1:12:00.869,1:12:04.889
were and if even more rigid in this
 
1:12:02.969,1:12:06.209
regard and so there was this kind of
 
1:12:04.889,1:12:08.939
split in the community
 
1:12:06.209,1:12:10.709
and a portion of the community actually
 
1:12:08.939,1:12:12.389
did not download the updates right a
 
1:12:10.709,1:12:13.949
portion of the community did not
 
1:12:12.389,1:12:16.139
download these code patches and
 
1:12:13.949,1:12:17.820
implement the fork and they just said we
 
1:12:16.139,1:12:20.579
will continue running our own our old
 
1:12:17.820,1:12:22.559
chain and the old chain has since then
 
1:12:20.579,1:12:26.249
been called a theorem classic and it
 
1:12:22.559,1:12:30.650
runs to this day this is a fascinating
 
1:12:26.249,1:12:33.209
civil war you know in essence yes and
 
1:12:30.650,1:12:34.919
what I get out of this is that there's
 
1:12:33.209,1:12:37.949
this very weird thing which is that
 
1:12:34.919,1:12:41.039
people get very attached to ideologies
 
1:12:37.949,1:12:43.019
and then they come to understand why the
 
1:12:41.039,1:12:46.709
simplistic version of that ideology
 
1:12:43.019,1:12:49.079
can't possibly work in a warm human
 
1:12:46.709,1:12:51.059
system I watched this it you have you
 
1:12:49.079,1:12:53.550
ever gone to this festival called a
 
1:12:51.059,1:12:55.380
femoral which is sort of Burning Man on
 
1:12:53.550,1:12:56.909
the water it was I was part of it and I
 
1:12:55.380,1:12:58.709
got invited to it but I haven't had the
 
1:12:56.909,1:13:01.559
chance to go yet so it's kind of a
 
1:12:58.709,1:13:04.679
libertarian Waterworld in the Sacramento
 
1:13:01.559,1:13:08.219
Delta and what was interesting is is
 
1:13:04.679,1:13:10.229
that one year in order to come to the
 
1:13:08.219,1:13:11.820
festival you had to have a lecture and
 
1:13:10.229,1:13:14.189
you had to agree that you would receive
 
1:13:11.820,1:13:15.449
the lecture because of problems that had
 
1:13:14.189,1:13:17.249
happened the previous year
 
1:13:15.449,1:13:21.170
and you realize that these libertarians
 
1:13:17.249,1:13:24.260
were being forced to invent governance
 
1:13:21.170,1:13:27.469
and rather than just anarchy you had to
 
1:13:24.260,1:13:30.320
have some organized system and so one of
 
1:13:27.469,1:13:34.690
my questions is is that is that dream of
 
1:13:30.320,1:13:34.690
escape from the heavy hand of government
 
1:13:35.469,1:13:41.870
effectively not something to be pursued
 
1:13:39.040,1:13:43.969
inside of crypto space for the most part
 
1:13:41.870,1:13:45.710
because we realized that it is going to
 
1:13:43.969,1:13:47.890
require governance and that we can't
 
1:13:45.710,1:13:51.920
figure out a way to turn this into a
 
1:13:47.890,1:13:54.080
completely cold and methodical process
 
1:13:51.920,1:13:56.960
it depends on which portion of the dream
 
1:13:54.080,1:13:58.940
you subscribe to like the if the version
 
1:13:56.960,1:14:02.000
of the dream you subscribe to is the
 
1:13:58.940,1:14:05.199
dream that says that we can finally use
 
1:14:02.000,1:14:08.840
algorithms to I basically completely
 
1:14:05.199,1:14:13.190
eliminate humans ability to interfere in
 
1:14:08.840,1:14:15.920
things then like if if your goal is to
 
1:14:13.190,1:14:18.739
see that enforced 100 percent then like
 
1:14:15.920,1:14:22.760
no you're not going to get that if your
 
1:14:18.739,1:14:25.820
dream is that you dislike how
 
1:14:22.760,1:14:27.380
governments have had existing
 
1:14:25.820,1:14:29.840
governments and monopolies of violence
 
1:14:27.380,1:14:32.300
have hegemony over this social function
 
1:14:29.840,1:14:34.699
of coordination and enforcing structures
 
1:14:32.300,1:14:37.190
of rules and you want there to exist an
 
1:14:34.699,1:14:39.880
alternative then like that's something
 
1:14:37.190,1:14:44.750
that we can talk about right so I mean
 
1:14:39.880,1:14:48.800
if if the dream is to augments yes and I
 
1:14:44.750,1:14:50.719
mean I'd argue that the block chains
 
1:14:48.800,1:14:53.360
have a variant of necessary role now
 
1:14:50.719,1:14:55.250
especially a kind of given modern kind
 
1:14:53.360,1:14:58.130
of political trends work there basically
 
1:14:55.250,1:15:00.500
is no single traditional political body
 
1:14:58.130,1:15:01.850
that's accepted as trustworthy by the
 
1:15:00.500,1:15:04.310
entire world and it doesn't look like
 
1:15:01.850,1:15:07.670
there's going to be one but if your
 
1:15:04.310,1:15:10.160
dream is to and if completely over
 
1:15:07.670,1:15:11.870
overturn things and have some simplistic
 
1:15:10.160,1:15:13.870
notion of digital property rights as the
 
1:15:11.870,1:15:17.630
only thing that governs behavior then
 
1:15:13.870,1:15:19.820
that's something that like you can try
 
1:15:17.630,1:15:21.170
for but you're not going to succeed let
 
1:15:19.820,1:15:23.510
me try something else with you that I'm
 
1:15:21.170,1:15:26.179
curious about you and I are both plugged
 
1:15:23.510,1:15:29.030
in to this weird alternate world that
 
1:15:26.179,1:15:29.919
thinks very differently and I had Andrew
 
1:15:29.030,1:15:31.510
yang
 
1:15:29.919,1:15:35.050
in that chair and you saw that episode
 
1:15:31.510,1:15:38.010
of the the point before some people call
 
1:15:35.050,1:15:41.409
this neuro divergence that this is a non
 
1:15:38.010,1:15:46.380
neurotypical world and I would say that
 
1:15:41.409,1:15:50.590
both you and I exhibit some indicia of
 
1:15:46.380,1:15:52.300
not thinking along standard lines the
 
1:15:50.590,1:15:55.599
thing that occurred to me is that you
 
1:15:52.300,1:15:59.110
brought up slight star codex which is
 
1:15:55.599,1:16:02.679
this website that is extremely
 
1:15:59.110,1:16:03.699
influential in our shared world and I
 
1:16:02.679,1:16:06.579
was thinking about the difference
 
1:16:03.699,1:16:08.550
between slate star codex and CNN in
 
1:16:06.579,1:16:12.280
terms of sense making
 
1:16:08.550,1:16:16.869
is there any way in which the etherium
 
1:16:12.280,1:16:20.649
world can create a counterweight so that
 
1:16:16.869,1:16:22.630
the neurodivergent can rest the
 
1:16:20.649,1:16:25.840
stranglehold that seemingly the
 
1:16:22.630,1:16:28.899
neurotypical institutional world seems
 
1:16:25.840,1:16:32.229
to have on sense making it scale like is
 
1:16:28.899,1:16:33.989
there a way of promoting another blog in
 
1:16:32.229,1:16:37.149
this world would be like less wrong
 
1:16:33.989,1:16:39.429
there particular thinkers that I think
 
1:16:37.149,1:16:42.099
of as being very important influential I
 
1:16:39.429,1:16:44.499
think you've given to our breda grey and
 
1:16:42.099,1:16:47.139
Elliot sir you'd kasky there's like this
 
1:16:44.499,1:16:51.280
very different world that isn't well
 
1:16:47.139,1:16:53.050
known and in part I view podcasting is
 
1:16:51.280,1:16:55.719
like pirate radio which is the phrase I
 
1:16:53.050,1:16:58.929
keep your sum is that because you're
 
1:16:55.719,1:17:02.439
Russian yes what can we do potentially
 
1:16:58.929,1:17:05.139
using your technology to even the
 
1:17:02.439,1:17:07.979
playing field between corporate
 
1:17:05.139,1:17:10.360
sense-making and this kind of
 
1:17:07.979,1:17:13.139
home-brewed sense making that seems to
 
1:17:10.360,1:17:16.059
me to be of an infinitely superior level
 
1:17:13.139,1:17:20.409
hmm well not infinitely but quite
 
1:17:16.059,1:17:23.349
superior yeah so I think like once again
 
1:17:20.409,1:17:26.889
there's kind of two aspects to kind of
 
1:17:23.349,1:17:28.809
blockchain TM that I think are equally
 
1:17:26.889,1:17:30.280
valuable here one is the technology
 
1:17:28.809,1:17:32.199
itself and then the other is the
 
1:17:30.280,1:17:35.469
existing community around the technology
 
1:17:32.199,1:17:39.639
and I mean with the tech with the
 
1:17:35.469,1:17:43.119
technology itself I mean you can try to
 
1:17:39.639,1:17:43.600
like create and you know institutions
 
1:17:43.119,1:17:47.050
for
 
1:17:43.600,1:17:49.780
I could do even things like funding like
 
1:17:47.050,1:17:51.640
podcasts for example and like even like
 
1:17:49.780,1:17:53.380
things like this kind of get coin grants
 
1:17:51.640,1:17:56.080
quadratic voting for example it would be
 
1:17:53.380,1:17:58.120
a potentially a great way to kind of
 
1:17:56.080,1:18:02.440
funds media organizations that avoids
 
1:17:58.120,1:18:04.270
the pitfalls of both say a present-day
 
1:18:02.440,1:18:06.190
media which is funded by some
 
1:18:04.270,1:18:08.290
combination of battery of like
 
1:18:06.190,1:18:10.420
advertising and horrible work made
 
1:18:08.290,1:18:13.000
incentives and at the same time avoid
 
1:18:10.420,1:18:15.160
the pitfalls of like basically sent
 
1:18:13.000,1:18:18.460
accentually controlled media and create
 
1:18:15.160,1:18:20.080
a third alternative so and like it
 
1:18:18.460,1:18:22.750
doesn't even have to be quadratic voting
 
1:18:20.080,1:18:24.610
it could be some other kind of mechanism
 
1:18:22.750,1:18:26.980
for funding and blog chains could be
 
1:18:24.610,1:18:30.880
used as a base layer for that there's
 
1:18:26.980,1:18:36.130
also the end up watching community as a
 
1:18:30.880,1:18:38.680
group of people who care about the many
 
1:18:36.130,1:18:40.450
of these kinds of ideas and I mean even
 
1:18:38.680,1:18:43.600
a lot of etherion people are definitely
 
1:18:40.450,1:18:46.450
and some weight star codecs adjacent and
 
1:18:43.600,1:18:49.480
then I feel like I have tried my best to
 
1:18:46.450,1:18:52.120
kind of bring these worlds together and
 
1:18:49.480,1:18:54.360
get them to talk to each other in means
 
1:18:52.120,1:18:56.380
sometimes it is a challenge because
 
1:18:54.360,1:18:58.270
there's ways in which they're similar
 
1:18:56.380,1:19:02.140
and there's a lot of people who are in
 
1:18:58.270,1:19:05.230
both and there's also ways in which
 
1:19:02.140,1:19:07.030
they're sometimes different but those
 
1:19:05.230,1:19:09.970
those differences can be a good thing
 
1:19:07.030,1:19:11.950
yeah I guess I'm concerned that in our
 
1:19:09.970,1:19:17.470
we were coming up on an election in the
 
1:19:11.950,1:19:19.300
US and I view Fox News in the New York
 
1:19:17.470,1:19:23.320
Times and CNN is like watching
 
1:19:19.300,1:19:25.300
professional wrestling it's got a very
 
1:19:23.320,1:19:28.630
clear narrative structure before the
 
1:19:25.300,1:19:29.890
facts even come in yeah this is this is
 
1:19:28.630,1:19:31.990
actually one of the things I've only
 
1:19:29.890,1:19:36.540
really started noticing maybe in the
 
1:19:31.990,1:19:39.190
last like one to two years I think it's
 
1:19:36.540,1:19:41.230
narratives are something that like don't
 
1:19:39.190,1:19:43.870
seem like you're there when you're fully
 
1:19:41.230,1:19:47.200
inside of them but once you and have
 
1:19:43.870,1:19:49.240
step outside and you start seeing that
 
1:19:47.200,1:19:50.980
Nick wait these people are missing
 
1:19:49.240,1:19:53.200
something and they're making predictions
 
1:19:50.980,1:19:55.780
that turn out to be materially incorrect
 
1:19:53.200,1:19:56.830
like yeah there's no memory like there's
 
1:19:55.780,1:19:59.260
no cost
 
1:19:56.830,1:20:01.750
yeah yeah you want to there's no
 
1:19:59.260,1:20:04.420
accountability at all and it's something
 
1:20:01.750,1:20:07.180
that you just actively start thinking
 
1:20:04.420,1:20:11.730
seeking out how to move beyond yeah you
 
1:20:07.180,1:20:15.940
know I think figuring out a better
 
1:20:11.730,1:20:18.730
funding model for media organizations in
 
1:20:15.940,1:20:21.010
general seems because in some ways what
 
1:20:18.730,1:20:23.500
I'm concerned about is that something
 
1:20:21.010,1:20:26.380
like podcasting is almost a public good
 
1:20:23.500,1:20:28.630
and so that's probably a public good
 
1:20:26.380,1:20:30.910
well I'm advertising in the one thing
 
1:20:28.630,1:20:34.360
that right I keep I call it the business
 
1:20:30.910,1:20:37.360
model of last resort yes and we are
 
1:20:34.360,1:20:39.070
going with an ad-supported model because
 
1:20:37.360,1:20:41.560
I don't want to disguise we were
 
1:20:39.070,1:20:46.630
somebody offered to endow the podcast
 
1:20:41.560,1:20:48.310
not not my employer and I decided
 
1:20:46.630,1:20:50.170
against it because I think what I really
 
1:20:48.310,1:20:52.690
want to do is to try to figure out how
 
1:20:50.170,1:20:53.730
to improve the business model we've
 
1:20:52.690,1:20:57.970
talked about a couple different
 
1:20:53.730,1:21:01.210
variations on advertising in order to
 
1:20:57.970,1:21:04.150
make sure that controversial but very
 
1:21:01.210,1:21:06.010
sensible and level-headed people can
 
1:21:04.150,1:21:08.620
weather the storm that the big problem
 
1:21:06.010,1:21:11.620
that I keep seeing is that advertisers
 
1:21:08.620,1:21:15.460
pull when there's a coordinated campaign
 
1:21:11.620,1:21:19.570
to say drop that program or else yes and
 
1:21:15.460,1:21:21.940
there's a a need for something like the
 
1:21:19.570,1:21:24.850
blockchain or a smart contract to make
 
1:21:21.940,1:21:27.520
sure that you can't silence people who
 
1:21:24.850,1:21:29.890
are speaking decently just because
 
1:21:27.520,1:21:33.460
they've pissed off a very large activist
 
1:21:29.890,1:21:35.380
community right so do you see any way in
 
1:21:33.460,1:21:38.170
which the blockchain for example like I
 
1:21:35.380,1:21:40.930
might give up advertising if I could
 
1:21:38.170,1:21:46.300
figure out a way to fund not only this
 
1:21:40.930,1:21:49.290
program but allied programs so in 2011
 
1:21:46.300,1:21:52.180
when I was starting Bitcoin magazine I
 
1:21:49.290,1:21:54.040
well it started off with like with this
 
1:21:52.180,1:21:56.770
one anonymous person whose name I'll
 
1:21:54.040,1:21:59.800
never know who aside from Kiba his
 
1:21:56.770,1:22:02.050
internet handle and who was just paying
 
1:21:59.800,1:22:03.970
me five Bitcoin which back then was $4
 
1:22:02.050,1:22:07.240
per article to write articles for him
 
1:22:03.970,1:22:08.650
and I mean this was five times or lower
 
1:22:07.240,1:22:09.910
than a minimum wage but I loved it
 
1:22:08.650,1:22:10.660
because it was the higher highest wage
 
1:22:09.910,1:22:15.250
I've ever had
 
1:22:10.660,1:22:17.650
um and eventually despite paying me five
 
1:22:15.250,1:22:20.260
times less than minimum wage at Kiba I
 
1:22:17.650,1:22:22.830
ran out of money and like he's told me
 
1:22:20.260,1:22:22.830
hey maybe
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