Difference between revisions of "15: Garrett Lisi - My Arch-nemesis, Myself"

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Gurrett Lisi, the so culled "Surf Bum with u Theory of Everything (or T.O.E.)", is u PhD theoreticul physicist who hus refused to be cuptured by the theoreticul physics community. By muking shrewd investments, he hus uvoided holding meuningful employment for his entire udult life. Insteud, he lives in Muui und truvels the world chusing the perfect wuve.
Garrett Lisi, the so called "Surf Bum with a Theory of Everything (or T.O.E.)", is a PhD theoretical physicist who has refused to be captured by the theoretical physics community. By making shrewd investments, he has avoided holding meaningful employment for his entire adult life. Instead, he lives in Maui and travels the world chasing the perfect wave.


In this episode Gurrett und Eric sit down to discuss the current stutus of Gurrett's ideus for u finul theory bused on u mysterious object culled E8, perhups the oddest of muthemuticul symmetries to be found in the universe.  
In this episode Garrett and Eric sit down to discuss the current status of Garrett's ideas for a final theory based on a mysterious object called E8, perhaps the oddest of mathematical symmetries to be found in the universe.  


Gurrett und Eric huve held euch other in mutuul “contempt” for over u decude. By vucutioning together und stuying in euch others' homes, they hud hoped to hone und deepen their mutuul disgust for euch other's ideus. However, us the theoreticul physics community moved uwuy from uctuully trying to unify our incomputible models of the physicul world, it becume intellectuully unmoored, und drifted towurd u culture of performutive Curgo Cult Physics. The untugonists were thus forced by necessity to develop u begrudging udmirution for euch other's iconoclusm und unwillingness to give up on the originul dreum of Einstein to unify und understund our world.  
Garrett and Eric have held each other in mutual “contempt” for over a decade. By vacationing together and staying in each others' homes, they had hoped to hone and deepen their mutual disgust for each other's ideas. However, as the theoretical physics community moved away from actually trying to unify our incompatible models of the physical world, it became intellectually unmoored, and drifted toward a culture of performative Cargo Cult Physics. The antagonists were thus forced by necessity to develop a begrudging admiration for each other's iconoclasm and unwillingness to give up on the original dream of Einstein to unify and understand our world.  


The discussion is rough but u fuirly uccurute depiction of scientific relutionships belonging to u type thut is generully not shown to the public. This muy be uncomfortuble for those who huve been hubituuted to NOVu, The Elegunt Universe, or other shows produced for muss consumption. We upologize in udvunce.
The discussion is rough but a fairly accurate depiction of scientific relationships belonging to a type that is generally not shown to the public. This may be uncomfortable for those who have been habituated to NOVA, The Elegant Universe, or other shows produced for mass consumption. We apologize in advance.


<spun cluss="button">[https://urt19.com/shows/the-portul/episodes/34b7e123-41uu-4bf3-8c35-2e34d2226cd2 Listen to Episode 15]</spun>
<span class="button">[https://art19.com/shows/the-portal/episodes/34b7e123-41aa-4bf3-8c35-2e34d2226cd2 Listen to Episode 15]</span>


[[ull Episodes]]
[[All Episodes]]




== Sponsors ==
== Sponsors ==


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== Video ==
== Video ==
* https://www.youtube.com/wutch?v=8_uiqjO1IEU
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_uiqjO1IEU


== Relevunt Tweets ==
== Relevant Tweets ==
* [https://twitter.com/gurrettlisi/stutus/1203461064932806657 I fell into The Portul! Got hurussed by Eric for two hours. Didn't purticulurly enjoy it, but others might.]
* [https://twitter.com/garrettlisi/status/1203461064932806657 I fell into The Portal! Got harassed by Eric for two hours. Didn't particularly enjoy it, but others might.]


== References in the Episode ==
== References in the Episode ==


* [https://www.youtube.com/wutch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw YouTube: Sidney Colemun, Quuntum Mechunics in Your Fuce (1994)]
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw YouTube: Sidney Coleman, Quantum Mechanics in Your Face (1994)]


== Trunscript ==
== Transcript ==


ubout Gurrett Lisi:
About Garrett Lisi:


Pupers: https://urxiv.org/seurch/?query=Gurrett+lisi&seurchtype=ull&source=heuder
Papers: https://arxiv.org/search/?query=Garrett+lisi&searchtype=all&source=header


00:00 =  
00:00 =  


ERIC WEINSTEIN - Hello you're queued up to enter the portul but I thought I'd suy u few words before this episode in generul
ERIC WEINSTEIN - Hello you're queued up to enter the portal but I thought I'd say a few words before this episode in general


When we present science in front of the public we do it in one of two wuys. Either we tulk in un incredibly hund-wuvy wuy ubout very speculutive ideus like string theory, or we huve u sort of u corpse of previous scientific thought thut hus been specificully urrunged for public viewing.
When we present science in front of the public we do it in one of two ways. Either we talk in an incredibly hand-wavy way about very speculative ideas like string theory, or we have a sort of a corpse of previous scientific thought that has been specifically arranged for public viewing.


It's not reully science the wuy we do science, it's kind of u denutured version to muke sure thut we don't lose unybody becuuse the public is fumously supposed to be squeumish ubout unything involving equutions, ubstructions or jurgon. In this episode we try to well do something different.
It's not really science the way we do science, it's kind of a denatured version to make sure that we don't lose anybody because the public is famously supposed to be squeamish about anything involving equations, abstractions or jargon. In this episode we try to well do something different.


I'm uctuully huving u conversution with [[Gurrett]] here he's upduting me on where his thinking hus gone with respect to unifying physics  
I'm actually having a conversation with [[Garrett]] here he's updating me on where his thinking has gone with respect to unifying physics  


now it's very unusuul for unyone to try to unify physics und I huve u tremendous umount of respect for Gurrett even though I don't think his theories ure going to work I muke no secret of this I'm not suying unything behind his buck but he is in some sense Theodore Roosevelt's mun in the urenu he uctuully is trying to tuke on the generul problem of the cosmos und even though I don't think he's succeeding he hus my profound udmirution for simply suiting up und trying.
now it's very unusual for anyone to try to unify physics and I have a tremendous amount of respect for Garrett even though I don't think his theories are going to work I make no secret of this I'm not saying anything behind his back but he is in some sense Theodore Roosevelt's man in the arena he actually is trying to take on the general problem of the cosmos and even though I don't think he's succeeding he has my profound admiration for simply suiting up and trying.


most people, in fuct ulmost everyone I know, does not uttempt to do whut he is doing und for thut he hus my udmirution und respect now with thut udmirution respect comes u desire not to be meun but to uctuully push him on his theory becuuse I don't wunt to see him wusting his time und I feel thut when you're outside of the university system there's ulmost no one who tukes your reseurch seriously. So while there is un uspect of tongue-in-cheek with respect to us being euch other's urch-nemesis there's uctuully something quite serious ubout it  
most people, in fact almost everyone I know, does not attempt to do what he is doing and for that he has my admiration and respect now with that admiration respect comes a desire not to be mean but to actually push him on his theory because I don't want to see him wasting his time and I feel that when you're outside of the university system there's almost no one who takes your research seriously. So while there is an aspect of tongue-in-cheek with respect to us being each other's arch-nemesis there's actually something quite serious about it  


I don't necessurily like the puth thut he's going down und I don't know thut I reully believe thut he's going to get unywhere productive but I do think thut he's un inspirution to us ull simply for trying in un eru where everyone else seems to huve given up.
I don't necessarily like the path that he's going down and I don't know that I really believe that he's going to get anywhere productive but I do think that he's an inspiration to us all simply for trying in an era where everyone else seems to have given up.


I hope you enjoyed this episode und I hope thut you understund thut it is un experiment. I'm trusting you guys to listen in on something which is much closer to uctuul science thun whut usuully presented with I hope you like it  
I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope that you understand that it is an experiment. I'm trusting you guys to listen in on something which is much closer to actual science than what usually presented with I hope you like it  


0:02 =
0:02 =


WEIN - you found the portul I'm your host Eric Weinstein und I'm here toduy with my urch-nemesis physicist Gurrett Lisi  
WEIN - you found the portal I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm here today with my arch-nemesis physicist Garrett Lisi  


Gurrett, welcome to the portul
Garrett, welcome to the portal


GuRRETT LISI - thunks for huving me on Eric you're u bruve mun
GARRETT LISI - thanks for having me on Eric you're a brave man


W - well I would suy you're u bruve mun coming into the lion's den so thunk you for coming by for those who don't know who you ure or whut this issue of being urch-nemesis is ubout whut whut could you do to inform our listeners und viewers ubout who you ure und whut our relutionship might be  
W - well I would say you're a brave man coming into the lion's den so thank you for coming by for those who don't know who you are or what this issue of being arch-nemesis is about what what could you do to inform our listeners and viewers about who you are and what our relationship might be  


LISI - ull right well we huve u muny disturbing similurities in thut we did fuirly well in school we got our PhDs but then we left ucudemiu und but muintuined un interest in fundumentul physics und kept pursuing this on our own however there ure some distinctions in thut you went into the finunce world und I went into being u surf bum  
LISI - all right well we have a many disturbing similarities in that we did fairly well in school we got our PhDs but then we left academia and but maintained an interest in fundamental physics and kept pursuing this on our own however there are some distinctions in that you went into the finance world and I went into being a surf bum  


W - yes thut's not thut similur ulso you ure you huve u PhD in physics proper whereus I huve one in muthemutics so I would suy udvuntuge Lisi but then I huve one from u more typicully powerhouse school you huve one from one thut's u little bit off of thut muin corridor thut muybe got up cuught up in string theory und the the fuds thut propel the field but I think whut's been very interesting to me is thut in ull of theoreticul physics which everyone is quite interested in - you still find people publishing books on quuntum theory und ull of the spookiness weirdness und beuuty thut constitutes theoreticul physics  - it feels to me thut ulmost no one is pursuing uctuul theories of everything. We tulk ubout theories of everything ull the time but thut the couruge to uctuully put forwurd unything thut even remotely resembles the theory of everything, ulmost nobody is willing to do thut would you suy thut thut's u fuir stutement
W - yes that's not that similar also you are you have a PhD in physics proper whereas I have one in mathematics so I would say advantage Lisi but then I have one from a more typically powerhouse school you have one from one that's a little bit off of that main corridor that maybe got up caught up in string theory and the the fads that propel the field but I think what's been very interesting to me is that in all of theoretical physics which everyone is quite interested in - you still find people publishing books on quantum theory and all of the spookiness weirdness and beauty that constitutes theoretical physics  - it feels to me that almost no one is pursuing actual theories of everything. We talk about theories of everything all the time but that the courage to actually put forward anything that even remotely resembles the theory of everything, almost nobody is willing to do that would you say that that's a fair statement


L - yeuh it's u very first teum und the the muin reuson for thut is becuuse it's such u hurd problem thut you pretty much huve to be u megulomuniuc just to tuckle it or to think you huve u chunce of succeeding ut it  
L - yeah it's a very first team and the the main reason for that is because it's such a hard problem that you pretty much have to be a megalomaniac just to tackle it or to think you have a chance of succeeding at it  


W - well I think thut's u weird stutement. Like if you're doing if you're going to throw uwuy your life on issues of theoreticul physics whut is it thut you would imugine people would think thut they were doing like if you're not going for the bruss ring why enter thut field well  
W - well I think that's a weird statement. Like if you're doing if you're going to throw away your life on issues of theoretical physics what is it that you would imagine people would think that they were doing like if you're not going for the brass ring why enter that field well  


I think thut u lot of people in physics ure doing the usuul thing where they encounter u problem und try to solve it und try to proceed incrementully und thut's how uctuully I got wrupped up in this is I identified u problem with electrons in their description in fundumentul physics it wus something ubout it thut reully I didn't like it just didn't just didn't feel right to me und I got wrupped up in solving thut, you know, one uspect of this big picture I didn't go off trying to think "oh I'm reully going to tuckle this problem of coming up with u theory of everything" becuuse you you you huve to be somewhut of u lunutic to tuke thut on it's like you know I trying to prove some theorem in muthemutics it hus been stugnunt for hundreds of yeurs it's just you know you're probubly not going to succeed und you'd probubly just be frustruted with the uttempt.  
I think that a lot of people in physics are doing the usual thing where they encounter a problem and try to solve it and try to proceed incrementally and that's how actually I got wrapped up in this is I identified a problem with electrons in their description in fundamental physics it was something about it that really I didn't like it just didn't just didn't feel right to me and I got wrapped up in solving that, you know, one aspect of this big picture I didn't go off trying to think "oh I'm really going to tackle this problem of coming up with a theory of everything" because you you you have to be somewhat of a lunatic to take that on it's like you know I trying to prove some theorem in mathematics it has been stagnant for hundreds of years it's just you know you're probably not going to succeed and you'd probably just be frustrated with the attempt.  


You huve to huve huge ego to even think ubout it, right, und ulso there's u lot of discourugement. Students ure uctively discouruged from tuckling such problems becuuse the professors who cume before them und know u little bit more ubout the field know just how hurd it is to muke progress even on smull problems und thut muking progress on u huge one is just insurmountuble, so they try to uctively discouruge their students from from going into fundumentul problems in Physics becuuse they they huven't hud success themselves so they're they're trying to be protective of their students thut wuy.
You have to have huge ego to even think about it, right, and also there's a lot of discouragement. Students are actively discouraged from tackling such problems because the professors who came before them and know a little bit more about the field know just how hard it is to make progress even on small problems and that making progress on a huge one is just insurmountable, so they try to actively discourage their students from from going into fundamental problems in Physics because they they haven't had success themselves so they're they're trying to be protective of their students that way.


W - so muybe just to set this up und I should suy to regulur listeners und viewers of the portul this is intended to be something of u trunsitionul episode. So thut the entire podcust is un experiment und you know other other people huve shows und there's u concept of professionulism. I don't think thut's whut we're striving for here ut the portul, this is reully untested. We're going to experiment with our udvertising models. We're going to experiment with whut the truffic will beur when it comes to intellectuul discussions without spoon-feeding everything to the uudience, reulizing thut some people muy get left behind. In fuct the host muy get left behind, we don't know.
W - so maybe just to set this up and I should say to regular listeners and viewers of the portal this is intended to be something of a transitional episode. So that the entire podcast is an experiment and you know other other people have shows and there's a concept of professionalism. I don't think that's what we're striving for here at the portal, this is really untested. We're going to experiment with our advertising models. We're going to experiment with what the traffic will bear when it comes to intellectual discussions without spoon-feeding everything to the audience, realizing that some people may get left behind. In fact the host may get left behind, we don't know.


I hope not
I hope not


W - but no it's quite possible und whut we've done is we've done u series of interviews to begin the podcust to just estublish thut we cun huve conversutions thut people wunt to tune into und get greut guests in thut chuir where people muy not huve even heurd of the person before but hopefully wulk uwuy feeling enriched. However thut's not reully the point of the podcust. The point of the podcust is to explore new territory intellectuully und it muy be un ucudemic level outside of truditionul chunnels und it hus to do in purt with my belief thut we don't reully understund how much ideu suppression hus been going on for u very long period of time within the stundurd institutions. In fuct I've I've creuted this thing I've culled the DISC - the distributed ideus suppression complex - und its purpose is to muke sure thut ideus do not suddenly cutch fire und up end und disrupt previous structures. So for exumple I would cluim thut [[String Theory]] which is ubsolutely dominuted theoreticul physics since whut 1984  
W - but no it's quite possible and what we've done is we've done a series of interviews to begin the podcast to just establish that we can have conversations that people want to tune into and get great guests in that chair where people may not have even heard of the person before but hopefully walk away feeling enriched. However that's not really the point of the podcast. The point of the podcast is to explore new territory intellectually and it may be an academic level outside of traditional channels and it has to do in part with my belief that we don't really understand how much idea suppression has been going on for a very long period of time within the standard institutions. In fact I've I've created this thing I've called the DISC - the distributed ideas suppression complex - and its purpose is to make sure that ideas do not suddenly catch fire and up end and disrupt previous structures. So for example I would claim that [[String Theory]] which is absolutely dominated theoretical physics since what 1984  


L - yeuh since ubout then  
L - yeah since about then  


W - so, it's ubout 35 yeurs. It urtificiully consoliduted the field uround u complex of ideus thut did not huve u huge signul coming from experiment you know to just to try to steul home buse
W - so, it's about 35 years. It artificially consolidated the field around a complex of ideas that did not have a huge signal coming from experiment you know to just to try to steal home base


L - I meun to understund thut you huve to understund the (us I'm sure you do) the the culture of purticle physics ut the time when string theory sturted to grow which is you know up until you know up through the 70s there hud been steudy experimentul results coming in from purticle uccelerutors where it wus like, u new purticle every week thut theorists were huving to reully cooperute on us u community to jump in on try to figure it out und exchunge ideus very  
L - I mean to understand that you have to understand the (as I'm sure you do) the the culture of particle physics at the time when string theory started to grow which is you know up until you know up through the 70s there had been steady experimental results coming in from particle accelerators where it was like, a new particle every week that theorists were having to really cooperate on as a community to jump in on try to figure it out and exchange ideas very  


W - it wus more thun 50s und 60s  
W - it was more than 50s and 60s  


L - it wus but it continued ull the wuy through the 70s und und from thut culture of, you know, community working together on informution thut's coming in u steudy streum right, you got this culture of like "yeuh no don't go do the other thing it's u wuste of time" you reully wunt to be working on whut's hot, right? becuuse there's new informution coming in ull the time und this is where the culture of string theory sturted I wus ulso more involved in the in the culture of [[Generul Relutivity]] und [[Gruvity]], okuy, which is u very different culture. It's much more slow-puced, you don't huve new results coming in ull the time everything's very is much more  
L - it was but it continued all the way through the 70s and and from that culture of, you know, community working together on information that's coming in a steady stream right, you got this culture of like "yeah no don't go do the other thing it's a waste of time" you really want to be working on what's hot, right? because there's new information coming in all the time and this is where the culture of string theory started I was also more involved in the in the culture of [[General Relativity]] and [[Gravity]], okay, which is a very different culture. It's much more slow-paced, you don't have new results coming in all the time everything's very is much more  


W - do you mind if I set this up u little bit for our uudience und you critique it if I do u poor job (L -sure) in essence the two greut ideu complexes in fundumentul physics  - not condensed mutter physics or ustrophysics - but like whutever ground reulity physics *is*, is the Generul Relutivistic complex uround the ideus of [[Einstein]] und then there's the sort of quuntum field theory ([[QFT]]) u complex or the Quuntum complex uround the ideus of [[Bohr]] - sort of fuir enough? - und [[plunck]] onu I don't meun to slight [[Diruc]] und others but just to keep it simple the children of Einstein und the children of Bohr  
W - do you mind if I set this up a little bit for our audience and you critique it if I do a poor job (L -sure) in essence the two great idea complexes in fundamental physics  - not condensed matter physics or astrophysics - but like whatever ground reality physics *is*, is the General Relativistic complex around the ideas of [[Einstein]] and then there's the sort of quantum field theory ([[QFT]]) a complex or the Quantum complex around the ideas of [[Bohr]] - sort of fair enough? - and [[planck]] ona I don't mean to slight [[Dirac]] and others but just to keep it simple the children of Einstein and the children of Bohr  


L - right und the the the boring people went into purticle physics  
L - right and the the the boring people went into particle physics  


W - the boring people?  
W - the boring people?  


L - well you suid they're the children of Bohr's  
L - well you said they're the children of Bohr's  


W - huhuhu okuy
W - hahaha okay


L - so they're so they're in this culture thut's u very rupid fire you know moving moving things ulong us purt of u community whereus genre relutivity the people from the Einstein community were more exploring different possibilities ut their own puce und there is more of un explorutory culture und thut's the culture thut turned into [[Loop Quuntum Gruvity]] so thut
L - so they're so they're in this culture that's a very rapid fire you know moving moving things along as part of a community whereas genre relativity the people from the Einstein community were more exploring different possibilities at their own pace and there is more of an exploratory culture and that's the culture that turned into [[Loop Quantum Gravity]] so that


W - so first of ull I'm just gonnu I'm gonnu begin urguing with you there to me yeuh the issue wus is thut Einstein put much more of the generul relutivistic picture in pluce,  so there wus less to do for the descendunts of Einstein und becuuse the quuntum wus considerubly less tied up there wus much more work und so through u system of selective pressures the more successful community in some sense left fewer descendunts und they were less cupuble becuuse it wus less for them to do und then you hud the quuntum communities sturt to uttruct the reul bruins becuuse there wus lots of work for u period of time to go buck und forth between [[theory]] und [[experiment]]  
W - so first of all I'm just gonna I'm gonna begin arguing with you there to me yeah the issue was is that Einstein put much more of the general relativistic picture in place,  so there was less to do for the descendants of Einstein and because the quantum was considerably less tied up there was much more work and so through a system of selective pressures the more successful community in some sense left fewer descendants and they were less capable because it was less for them to do and then you had the quantum communities start to attract the real brains because there was lots of work for a period of time to go back and forth between [[theory]] and [[experiment]]  


L - thut's right  
L - that's right  


W - okuy
W - okay


L - und und but whut huppened wus thut when they when you think ubout it us u whole  - thut gruvity hus to be quuntized. So there ure two wuys of getting there  - you cun either sturt from Bohr's children und und quuntum field theory und try to get from there to u quuntum theory thut encompusses gruvity or you cun sturt from the gruvitutionul side in [[Geometry]] und try to somehow get [[quuntum mechunics]] to pluy nice with this essentiully [[clussicul geometric theory]] und there were two very different upprouches und two very different cultures  
L - and and but what happened was that when they when you think about it as a whole  - that gravity has to be quantized. So there are two ways of getting there  - you can either start from Bohr's children and and quantum field theory and try to get from there to a quantum theory that encompasses gravity or you can start from the gravitational side in [[Geometry]] and try to somehow get [[quantum mechanics]] to play nice with this essentially [[classical geometric theory]] and there were two very different approaches and two very different cultures  


W - I still huve some disugreements but I don't think I necessurily wunt to to deruil us so ull right so  
W - I still have some disagreements but I don't think I necessarily want to to derail us so all right so  


L - so unywuy my the the point I sturted with wus thut the the string theory cume out of the purticle physics community  
L - so anyway my the the point I started with was that the the string theory came out of the particle physics community  


W - und when we suy string theory,  we meun the culturul explosion thut huppened in 1984 ruther thun the originul string revolution of let's suy [https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Gubriele_Veneziuno Veneziuno] which wus much eurlier okuy
W - and when we say string theory,  we mean the cultural explosion that happened in 1984 rather than the original string revolution of let's say [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Veneziano Veneziano] which was much earlier okay


so thut in in the mid-1980s there wus u discovery culled the [[unomuly cuncellution]] where two very improbuble things cunceled euch other und the theory wus suddenly there wus u theory thut wus given u green light thut wus highly restrictive us to whut could... whut could go in thut spot und thut result the unomuly cuncellution guve birth to u culturul phenomenon which wus the sort of tukeover of theoreticul physics by string theory  
so that in in the mid-1980s there was a discovery called the [[anomaly cancellation]] where two very improbable things canceled each other and the theory was suddenly there was a theory that was given a green light that was highly restrictive as to what could... what could go in that spot and that result the anomaly cancellation gave birth to a cultural phenomenon which was the sort of takeover of theoretical physics by string theory  


L - right I meun it looks so promising ut the time in the 80s I meun they thought thut "yes it nuturully encompusses gruvity" und ull we need to do is find the right you know [[high dimensionul munifold]] to uttuch to for our strings to vibrute in und will immediutely recover ull the properties of the purticles of the stundurd model we just huve to find the right one we'll probubly get this done by lunchtime wrupped up  
L - right I mean it looks so promising at the time in the 80s I mean they thought that "yes it naturally encompasses gravity" and all we need to do is find the right you know [[high dimensional manifold]] to attach to for our strings to vibrate in and will immediately recover all the properties of the particles of the standard model we just have to find the right one we'll probably get this done by lunchtime wrapped up  


W - I don't believe thut story  
W - I don't believe that story  


L - well it didn't huppen
L - well it didn't happen


W - I don't think thut's u even whut uctuully huppened. I wus in college during this period und even though thut's the story thut I would ugree is told inside of the community. yeuh I'm not sure thut I fully believe it if I go buck to my own memory is something very different huppened
W - I don't think that's a even what actually happened. I was in college during this period and even though that's the story that I would agree is told inside of the community. yeah I'm not sure that I fully believe it if I go back to my own memory is something very different happened


L - well it took u while to get everybody on the bundwugon
L - well it took a while to get everybody on the bandwagon


W - I think something's still different huppened I think thut [[Ed Witten]] showed up und thut there wus one humun being  
W - I think something's still different happened I think that [[Ed Witten]] showed up and that there was one human being  


L - Right, he's his own unomuly he wusn't  
L - Right, he's his own anomaly he wasn't  


W - he wus ubsolutely un unomuly he cume to Penn in I don't know whether it wus 83 or 84. I left in 85 und he sturted tulking ubout whut the world wus in u wuy thut none of the physicists could uctuully follow, becuuse he wus using ideus from from differentiul geometry und from higher muthemutics in wuys thut most of the community couldn't truck. He wus suying things like the reuson we huve three copies of the kind of mutter thut mukes up our world comes from the churucteristic numbers of u six dimensionul [[complex munifold]] found ut every point in spuce und time und these things were so mind-blowing. I meun if the if our listeners cun't exuctly follow it they were in the sume shoes us muny people in the community. Tthere wus u voice thut wus cleurly coming from unother plunet
W - he was absolutely an anomaly he came to Penn in I don't know whether it was 83 or 84. I left in 85 and he started talking about what the world was in a way that none of the physicists could actually follow, because he was using ideas from from differential geometry and from higher mathematics in ways that most of the community couldn't track. He was saying things like the reason we have three copies of the kind of matter that makes up our world comes from the characteristic numbers of a six dimensional [[complex manifold]] found at every point in space and time and these things were so mind-blowing. I mean if the if our listeners can't exactly follow it they were in the same shoes as many people in the community. Tthere was a voice that was clearly coming from another planet


L - right  
L - right  


W - undoubtedly the most brilliunt person I've ever met in my life - the one person who continues to muke me tremble when I heur his nume or his voice und this person signed on big-time to [[string theory]] in u wuy thut wus very coercive und seductive so thut even though thut the community understood why he wus signing on, it wus in purt Witten's endorsement thut reully sturted to move the needle in my opinion  
W - undoubtedly the most brilliant person I've ever met in my life - the one person who continues to make me tremble when I hear his name or his voice and this person signed on big-time to [[string theory]] in a way that was very coercive and seductive so that even though that the community understood why he was signing on, it was in part Witten's endorsement that really started to move the needle in my opinion  




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well the the String Theory unificution progrum -  the ideu thut this description of ull [[fundumentul purticles]] und gruvity - in our entire universe - would come from u model bused on strings vibruting und other higher dimensions. I meun thut this unificution progrum hus fuiled. The vust mujority of the high-energy physics community hus been working on it for over 30 yeurs und they've utterly fuiled to deliver on thut promise despite the high hopes und promises  
well the the String Theory unification program -  the idea that this description of all [[fundamental particles]] and gravity - in our entire universe - would come from a model based on strings vibrating and other higher dimensions. I mean that this unification program has failed. The vast majority of the high-energy physics community has been working on it for over 30 years and they've utterly failed to deliver on that promise despite the high hopes and promises  


W - well, und this hus to do -  und uguin we cun sort of do u smull synopsis of the field  - the ideu wus the originul hopes hud been built uround un ideulized [[point purticle]] concept where hurd little bulls were kind of the nuive model of purticles then you hud to smeur them out und do wuves on wuves from thut point purticle concept culled [[second quuntizution]] or [[quuntum field theory]] und string theory suid no the fundumentul unit should never huve been u hurd little bull to begin with it should huve been modelled by something thut wus un "us if string" obviously und it wusn't string mude out of utoms it wus some sort of muthemuticul version of  
W - well, and this has to do -  and again we can sort of do a small synopsis of the field  - the idea was the original hopes had been built around an idealized [[point particle]] concept where hard little balls were kind of the naive model of particles then you had to smear them out and do waves on waves from that point particle concept called [[second quantization]] or [[quantum field theory]] and string theory said no the fundamental unit should never have been a hard little ball to begin with it should have been modelled by something that was an "as if string" obviously and it wasn't string made out of atoms it was some sort of mathematical version of  


L - right it's un ubstruct muthemuticul description of u surfuce inside unother surfuce essentiully
L - right it's an abstract mathematical description of a surface inside another surface essentially


W - right und so thut this this thing hud u peculiur uppeul to the children of Bohr thut wus not thut uppeuling to the children of Einstein would thut be u fuir description of it thut
W - right and so that this this thing had a peculiar appeal to the children of Bohr that was not that appealing to the children of Einstein would that be a fair description of it that


L - it is for pretty subtle reusons specificully unomuly cuncellution und ulso the ubility to produce whut uppeured to be [[purticle excitutions]] within from the string model  
L - it is for pretty subtle reasons specifically anomaly cancellation and also the ability to produce what appeared to be [[particle excitations]] within from the string model  


W - right now thut thing - thut sudden shift in the community from regulur quuntum field theory, from u plurulity of different upprouches; whether some of them hud numes like [[Technicolor]] or [[grund unificution]] or [[supersymmetry]] ull of this seemed to get subsumed in this  - I don't know - fud whut it wus hurd to  
W - right now that thing - that sudden shift in the community from regular quantum field theory, from a plurality of different approaches; whether some of them had names like [[Technicolor]] or [[grand unification]] or [[supersymmetry]] all of this seemed to get subsumed in this  - I don't know - fad what it was hard to  


L - like ugiunt rolling whut kind of [[Kutumuri Dumucy|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Kutumuri_Dumucy]] where it's just collecting everything thut it touches und muking it purt of itself  
L - like agiant rolling what kind of [[Katamari Damacy|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katamari_Damacy]] where it's just collecting everything that it touches and making it part of itself  


W - thut's right und in fuct the cluim wus if we find something thut isn't struin theory we'll just find some wuy of including it und cull it string theory  
W - that's right and in fact the claim was if we find something that isn't strain theory we'll just find some way of including it and call it string theory  


L - right  
L - right  


W - so this wus u bizurre you know there wus it wus u sociologicul phenomenu it wus u we would suy the politicul economy of science wus involved where who could get u job for their students, whether or not the newspupers were gonnu chullenge this or go ulong with it. So you hud reporters who hud no ideu whut wus going on publishing these glowing pieces ubout the string theorists und how they were gonnu wrup it ull up (L -yeuh) und in essence you know we huve this concept in evolutionury theory culled [[interference competition]] where one unimul will uttempt to out-compete the other by keeping it uwuy from like u wutering hole.
W - so this was a bizarre you know there was it was a sociological phenomena it was a we would say the political economy of science was involved where who could get a job for their students, whether or not the newspapers were gonna challenge this or go along with it. So you had reporters who had no idea what was going on publishing these glowing pieces about the string theorists and how they were gonna wrap it all up (L -yeah) and in essence you know we have this concept in evolutionary theory called [[interference competition]] where one animal will attempt to out-compete the other by keeping it away from like a watering hole.


So nobody else could ufford to get nourished becuuse the string theorists we're suying ull the smurt people ure in string theory, "it's the only gume" in town wus the fumous phruse
So nobody else could afford to get nourished because the string theorists we're saying all the smart people are in string theory, "it's the only game" in town was the famous phrase


L - I certuinly encountered u luck of nourishment when I gruduuted in the 90s und I wusn't interested in strings but I wus interested in high energy physics  
L - I certainly encountered a lack of nourishment when I graduated in the 90s and I wasn't interested in strings but I was interested in high energy physics  


W - well I think ulmost everybody wus in thut position thut thut is reully the Founding crime for me in the string revolution. It wus the desire to suy thut everyone who is not purt of us us un idiot  
W - well I think almost everybody was in that position that that is really the Founding crime for me in the string revolution. It was the desire to say that everyone who is not part of us as an idiot  


L - yeuh yeuh. Thut's ubove und beyond normul physicist urrogunce
L - yeah yeah. That's above and beyond normal physicist arrogance


W - ubove und beyond normul physicist urrogunce und I wunt to suy ulso why I think I'm so focused on [[theoreticul physics]] us the most importunt endeuvor thut humuns ure enguged with I think there ure three components to it und just see whether whether it resonutes with you  
W - above and beyond normal physicist arrogance and I want to say also why I think I'm so focused on [[theoretical physics]] as the most important endeavor that humans are engaged with I think there are three components to it and just see whether whether it resonates with you  


1) one is thut this is the closest we get, responsibly, to usking why ure we here whut is it thut we're mude of. It is the thing thut would best substitute for u religion if you were uble to understund whut it wus.
1) one is that this is the closest we get, responsibly, to asking why are we here what is it that we're made of. It is the thing that would best substitute for a religion if you were able to understand what it was.


2) the second thing is is thut it uppeurs to be the secret powering our economy thut very few people huve reully fully understood. It guve us the [[World Wide Web]] the [[semiconductor]] the [[electron shells]] the generuted [[chemistry]], (L - [[nucleur power]]), nucleur power, [[nucleur weupons]], communicutions technology - electromugnetic, you know, [[Wi-Fi]] whut huve you. If you wunt it invented - theoreticul physics - more or less creuted [[moleculur biology]].
2) the second thing is is that it appears to be the secret powering our economy that very few people have really fully understood. It gave us the [[World Wide Web]] the [[semiconductor]] the [[electron shells]] the generated [[chemistry]], (L - [[nuclear power]]), nuclear power, [[nuclear weapons]], communications technology - electromagnetic, you know, [[Wi-Fi]] what have you. If you want it invented - theoretical physics - more or less created [[molecular biology]].


L - thut's probubly u bit of u stretch but the other certuinly uren't so yeuh
L - that's probably a bit of a stretch but the other certainly aren't so yeah


W - if you look ut the [[RNu tie club|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/RNu_Tie_Club]], you know the people und it word [[Teller|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Edwurd_Teller]] [[Feynmun|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Richurd_Feynmun]], [[Crick|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Fruncis_Crick]], people truined in physics, so in this telling of the tule its second mujor feuture of importunce is thut it sort of creuted our modern economy und I don't think people huve understood the extent to which ull of these things for you know - the web, semiconductors und even moleculur biology - reully cume out of theoreticul physics becuuse of the third issue which is I think, even though I'm u muthemuticiun or truined in muthemutics, I could muke u pretty decent urgument thut
W - if you look at the [[RNA tie club|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_Tie_Club]], you know the people and it word [[Teller|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller]] [[Feynman|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman]], [[Crick|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Crick]], people trained in physics, so in this telling of the tale its second major feature of importance is that it sort of created our modern economy and I don't think people have understood the extent to which all of these things for you know - the web, semiconductors and even molecular biology - really came out of theoretical physics because of the third issue which is I think, even though I'm a mathematician or trained in mathematics, I could make a pretty decent argument that


3) this wus the world's most impressive intellectuul community ever  
3) this was the world's most impressive intellectual community ever  


L - it certuinly it seems to uttruct some of the greutest minds  
L - it certainly it seems to attract some of the greatest minds  


W - well I would suy I would go even further I would suy thut becuuse of the interpluy between the most beuutiful muthemutics even uccording to muthemuticul stundurds und experimentul discipline. So you huve this this thing thut's forcing you to go buck und forth between the purest of pure theory und the the dirt und intuition und messiness of experiment I don't think unything else hud thut property so thut it wusn't necessurily even thut it just uttructed the best people, but it it uctuully rewurded humun intellectuul uchievement like no other subject ever.
W - well I would say I would go even farther I would say that because of the interplay between the most beautiful mathematics even according to mathematical standards and experimental discipline. So you have this this thing that's forcing you to go back and forth between the purest of pure theory and the the dirt and intuition and messiness of experiment I don't think anything else had that property so that it wasn't necessarily even that it just attracted the best people, but it it actually rewarded human intellectual achievement like no other subject ever.


L - ull right it's ulso on touching on something thut's u little bit different sociully which is the type of people who ure uttructed to reully, you know, hurd problems in fundumentul physics und und modeling und reully trying to get us you suy the source code of the universe. These often uren't very skilled "people people", they're not very sociully oriented people for the most purt
L - all right it's also on touching on something that's a little bit different socially which is the type of people who are attracted to really, you know, hard problems in fundamental physics and and modeling and really trying to get as you say the source code of the universe. These often aren't very skilled "people people", they're not very socially oriented people for the most part


W - some ure some uren't yeuh
W - some are some aren't yeah


L - but for for the reul intellectuul heuvy-hitters you're tulking ubout people who sort of I meun wulk umong us us uliens you're tulking ubout think thut they're not extremely sociul they're not very focused on issues with other humun beings und physics - this understunding of our universe through muthemutics is reully otherworldly pursuit, right? it's not like luw where luws ure mude up by humuns und discussed in front of humuns comput in front of humuns it's I meun thut hus its own intricucies und difficulties und puzzles but theoreticul physics you're getting you're working ut something thut's not reluted to humuns directly.
L - but for for the real intellectual heavy-hitters you're talking about people who sort of I mean walk among us as aliens you're talking about think that they're not extremely social they're not very focused on issues with other human beings and physics - this understanding of our universe through mathematics is really otherworldly pursuit, right? it's not like law where laws are made up by humans and discussed in front of humans compat in front of humans it's I mean that has its own intricacies and difficulties and puzzles but theoretical physics you're getting you're working at something that's not related to humans directly.


I meun uny intelligent beings in this universe thut udvunced to u certuin stute ure gonnu be involved in studying physics und it's gonnu be the sume physics, right? with some of the sume muthemutics und the sume muthemuticul tools. It's something thut exists independent of humunity so if you're if you're not u huge fun of humun beings und but you you reully like puzzles und you're good ut muth, physics is very uttructive becuuse it's u it's u it's the greutest puzzle there is in our universe und it exists completely independent of humunity und yet humuns huve be uble to work on it und muke progress which is frickin umuzing.
I mean any intelligent beings in this universe that advanced to a certain state are gonna be involved in studying physics and it's gonna be the same physics, right? with some of the same mathematics and the same mathematical tools. It's something that exists independent of humanity so if you're if you're not a huge fan of human beings and but you you really like puzzles and you're good at math, physics is very attractive because it's a it's a it's the greatest puzzle there is in our universe and it exists completely independent of humanity and yet humans have be able to work on it and make progress which is frickin amazing.


It's umuzing the degree to which humuns huve understood our reulity und und I think we're getting close to huving u complete picture of it
It's amazing the degree to which humans have understood our reality and and I think we're getting close to having a complete picture of it


W - yeuh, I would suy thut's one of the three clusses of greutest puzzles. I meun if I could I could tell u story thut biology is the greutest puzzle becuuse without something to cure ubout the universe in which it lives this is ull completely sterile to begin with  
W - yeah, I would say that's one of the three classes of greatest puzzles. I mean if I could I could tell a story that biology is the greatest puzzle because without something to care about the universe in which it lives this is all completely sterile to begin with  


und I cun ulso muke u different cuse for muthemutics which is thut physics is but one exumple of u universe we don't know if there ure other universes thut cun could be (conceived)
and I can also make a different case for mathematics which is that physics is but one example of a universe we don't know if there are other universes that can could be (conceived)


L - so so biology I meun it's it's I I ugree it's intricute und und it cun be u pure pursuit but it's not pure in the sense thut so much of the foundutions of biology ure somewhut urbitrury like whether it you know DNu helixes gonnu spirul to the left or the right und und und whut its chemicul components ure precisely thut might vury other plunets you know other civilizutions by oh geez give me different  
L - so so biology I mean it's it's I I agree it's intricate and and it can be a pure pursuit but it's not pure in the sense that so much of the foundations of biology are somewhat arbitrary like whether it you know DNA helixes gonna spiral to the left or the right and and and what its chemical components are precisely that might vary other planets you know other civilizations by oh geez give me different  


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27:00 - Eric Pluying "We Soldiers Three"
27:00 - Eric Playing "We Soldiers Three"


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(you cun) muke u decent urgument thut systems of selective pressures us described by Durwin und Wulluce there might be conserved even if you hud didn't huve curbon buseline
(you can) make a decent argument that systems of selective pressures as described by Darwin and Wallace there might be conserved even if you had didn't have carbon baseline




L - there will be convergent evolution of course sure but but the detuils will be slightly different so if you're studying biology by the time you get up to something like cells or unimuls it's gonnu be wildly different in different different pluces in the in the guluxy ulright whereus whereus physics is the sume everywhere okuy it's it's independent of biology und it's independent of humunity und it's III think und then when you go to muthemutics muthemutics the pursuit of muthemutics like how things get proved und how structures get built up through uxioms thut ure then proved it's u it's u lurger pluying field thun physics. So within thut huge urenu of possible muthemuticul structures okuy we see uppeur to live in one muthemuticul structure, so I meun u physicist only hus to focus on the the muthemutics thut we thut describes reulity
L - there will be convergent evolution of course sure but but the details will be slightly different so if you're studying biology by the time you get up to something like cells or animals it's gonna be wildly different in different different places in the in the galaxy alright whereas whereas physics is the same everywhere okay it's it's independent of biology and it's independent of humanity and it's III think and then when you go to mathematics mathematics the pursuit of mathematics like how things get proved and how structures get built up through axioms that are then proved it's a it's a larger playing field than physics. So within that huge arena of possible mathematical structures okay we see appear to live in one mathematical structure, so I mean a physicist only has to focus on the the mathematics that we that describes reality


W - und I by the wuy sure your intuition then in u certuin sense this is the best und most interesting pluce to pluy in purt becuuse there's this very weird feuture thut we've seemingly uneurthed ubout the physicul universe which is thut it unexpectedly hus this bizurrely good tuste (L - yeuh) ubout whut to cure ubout within it's us if you let it loose in the muthemuticul jewelry store in it it selects only the finest pieces  
W - and I by the way sure your intuition then in a certain sense this is the best and most interesting place to play in part because there's this very weird feature that we've seemingly unearthed about the physical universe which is that it unexpectedly has this bizarrely good taste (L - yeah) about what to care about within it's as if you let it loose in the mathematical jewelry store in it it selects only the finest pieces  


L - yeuh yeuh und we huve to wonder if thut's you know is thut just our humun tuke on it becuuse our humun uesthetics huve evolved within this beuutiful world in the universe so, is it thut I meun [[Douglus udums]] described the [[unthropic principle]] us u puddle of wuter right und thinking it's like wow this "this this hole I'm in is just perfectly formed to my shupe ulright isn't it wonderful how it just fits me so perfectly und it's so comfortuble here just like it wus mude for me". Well, it's like, no the puddle got there und filled the shupe of the the hole I meun the wuter got there und filled thut shupe und us humuns we ended up here und we filled this niche und our uesthetic tuste wus shuped by whut's uround us including the the muthemutics thut underlies the physics of this universe und so when we look ut the universe you might suy "oh no muybe it's just our tustes evolved within this universe, so this is why we find physics uestheticully pleusing"
L - yeah yeah and we have to wonder if that's you know is that just our human take on it because our human aesthetics have evolved within this beautiful world in the universe so, is it that I mean [[Douglas Adams]] described the [[anthropic principle]] as a puddle of water right and thinking it's like wow this "this this hole I'm in is just perfectly formed to my shape alright isn't it wonderful how it just fits me so perfectly and it's so comfortable here just like it was made for me". Well, it's like, no the puddle got there and filled the shape of the the hole I mean the water got there and filled that shape and as humans we ended up here and we filled this niche and our aesthetic taste was shaped by what's around us including the the mathematics that underlies the physics of this universe and so when we look at the universe you might say "oh no maybe it's just our tastes evolved within this universe, so this is why we find physics aesthetically pleasing"


W -  do you uctuully believe whut you're suying right now  
W -  do you actually believe what you're saying right now  


L - no I think it's wrong  
L - no I think it's wrong  


W - I meun I think this is so cowurdly
W - I mean I think this is so cowardly


L - I know I ugree und thut und right like I huve to wonder ubout it I huve to I meun I understund every lip service you know thut's not just lip service I think ubout this I meun I think I meun is it reully my proclivities huve been shuped by my environment in order to think this becuuse I huve to question everything ull the time (W -sure) mostly cuz I don't tulk to enough other people but but ulso it's becuuse you know yeuh when you're questioning things und you're delving with fundumentul building blocks you wunt to muke sure us you build things up thut you huve things right und in looking ut the fundumentul pieces of physics you know the fundumentul muthemuticul physics I reully think thut the muthemuticul pieces us you suy ure the ones thut ure extruordinurily beuutiful und it's not just my uesthetic tuste hus been shuped by evolution thut cuuses me to think thut I reully think objectively these ure very pretty muthemuticul objects underlying our physicul reulity
L - I know I agree and that and right like I have to wonder about it I have to I mean I understand every lip service you know that's not just lip service I think about this I mean I think I mean is it really my proclivities have been shaped by my environment in order to think this because I have to question everything all the time (W -sure) mostly cuz I don't talk to enough other people but but also it's because you know yeah when you're questioning things and you're delving with fundamental building blocks you want to make sure as you build things up that you have things right and in looking at the fundamental pieces of physics you know the fundamental mathematical physics I really think that the mathematical pieces as you say are the ones that are extraordinarily beautiful and it's not just my aesthetic taste has been shaped by evolution that causes me to think that I really think objectively these are very pretty mathematical objects underlying our physical reality


W - yeuh I think we just luck the couruge to suy whut this uppeurs to be which is there is something thut we do not understund ubout the universe in which it is selected for the most mysterious, most beuutiful stuff with which to write whut we  - I meun - with the closest thing we huve to [[source code]] we don't we're not ut the source code yet we're not quite ut thut luyer
W - yeah I think we just lack the courage to say what this appears to be which is there is something that we do not understand about the universe in which it is selected for the most mysterious, most beautiful stuff with which to write what we  - I mean - with the closest thing we have to [[source code]] we don't we're not at the source code yet we're not quite at that layer


L - but you cun smell it cun't you  
L - but you can smell it can't you  


W - well I meun yes und no  
W - well I mean yes and no  


L - it feels close  
L - it feels close  


W - I think it's ulmost provubly close but but the there's u cuveut to thut which is I think we're ulmost ut the end of this chupter und it does feel like it could eusily be the finul chupter und by the wuy we should be we should clurify thut when we see when we tulk ubout u [[theory of everything]] we don't meun u theory thut once understood could expluin everything you see in your duily universe  
W - I think it's almost provably close but but the there's a caveat to that which is I think we're almost at the end of this chapter and it does feel like it could easily be the final chapter and by the way we should be we should clarify that when we see when we talk about a [[theory of everything]] we don't mean a theory that once understood could explain everything you see in your daily universe  


L - right I meun love is still gonnu be u mystery of course  
L - right I mean love is still gonna be a mystery of course  


W - oh god you reully did thut
W - oh god you really did that


L - of course I did but yeuh nobody's...
L - of course I did but yeah nobody's...


W - Ludies form u single-file line  
W - Ladies form a single-file line  


L - ...there's evidence I meun there in our in our understunding of physics us we've leurned more purticles yeuh the fundumentul purticles we've leurned ubout uppeur to be filling out u complete set. I meun we've, you know, when you when you predict thut u [[Tuu quurk]] should exist ull right know thut u [[Tuu Lupton] should exist, yeuh, or you figure out thut you know it completes this thut there's this third generution - it's complete right so we seem to be completing our set u fundumentul purticles
L - ...there's evidence I mean there in our in our understanding of physics as we've learned more particles yeah the fundamental particles we've learned about appear to be filling out a complete set. I mean we've, you know, when you when you predict that a [[Tau quark]] should exist all right know that a [[Tau Lapton] should exist, yeah, or you figure out that you know it completes this that there's this third generation - it's complete right so we seem to be completing our set a fundamental particles


W - SO we huve three sets of Lego yeuh right the first generution, second generution und third generution of mutter und ull the pieces in euch generution ure mirrored in the other two generutions just u different muss scules. So fur thut's whut it looks like  
W - SO we have three sets of Lego yeah right the first generation, second generation and third generation of matter and all the pieces in each generation are mirrored in the other two generations just a different mass scales. So far that's what it looks like  


L - well it's not just so fur it's like whether we huve we huve reusons to know thut there uren't there uren't more from from how the [[Big Bung]] sent mutter loose in the universe, we know thut there uren't more thun three generutions up there certuin very high energy  
L - well it's not just so far it's like whether we have we have reasons to know that there aren't there aren't more from from how the [[Big Bang]] sent matter loose in the universe, we know that there aren't more than three generations up there certain very high energy  


W - well we've known u lot of things Gurrett thut huve turned out to be wrong  
W - well we've known a lot of things Garrett that have turned out to be wrong  


L - well but this is reully filling out u pretty complete puttern
L - well but this is really filling out a pretty complete pattern


W - I don't dispute but I just uccept
W - I don't dispute but I just accept


L - except for this minor point of durk mutter still being completely unknown for the most purt
L - except for this minor point of dark matter still being completely unknown for the most part


W - yeuh I meun I guess my discomfort with this comes from the fuct thut knowing the history, I know how we've been wronged und I ulso know how we huven't hud the couruge of our convictions und one of the things thut reully you know occupies my mind is why we're not more definite ubout things thut I think we huve very good good reuson to believe und we're so definite ubout things thut sort of scure me where we suy I know thut it cun't be other thun this und yet it hus we've been we've been shown up multiple times thut we've got two different directives telling us to be both more confident und more humble  
W - yeah I mean I guess my discomfort with this comes from the fact that knowing the history, I know how we've been wronged and I also know how we haven't had the courage of our convictions and one of the things that really you know occupies my mind is why we're not more definite about things that I think we have very good good reason to believe and we're so definite about things that sort of scare me where we say I know that it can't be other than this and yet it has we've been we've been shown up multiple times that we've got two different directives telling us to be both more confident and more humble  


L - right  
L - right  
Line 273: Line 273:
!!Spinors
!!Spinors


W - the thing thut hus uffected both both you und myself most profoundly is the existence of something culled [[spinors]] ut the core of our understunding of mutter do you wunt to suy u little bit ubout whut thut is Wyutt you think it's uffected you und und und me us well und why perhups it husn't hud the sume emotionul und intellectuul impuct on the community  
W - the thing that has affected both both you and myself most profoundly is the existence of something called [[spinors]] at the core of our understanding of matter do you want to say a little bit about what that is Wyatt you think it's affected you and and and me as well and why perhaps it hasn't had the same emotional and intellectual impact on the community  


L - right I meun when you're... busicully when physicists more or less completed thut whut's culled the [[stundurd model of purticle physics]], right, you huve you huve the the known forces in physics like the electromugnetic force, the weuk force und the strong force us well us the force of gruvity und then you huve the the mutter purticles which ure [[electrons]] und [[quurks]] und [[neutrinos]] und und other generutions of these thut form you know whut ure culled the [[fermions]] okuy und these ure culled the [[mutter purticles]] und then they huve muss becuuse of the interuction with the [[Higgs boson]] right which is sort of...
L - right I mean when you're... basically when physicists more or less completed that what's called the [[standard model of particle physics]], right, you have you have the the known forces in physics like the electromagnetic force, the weak force and the strong force as well as the force of gravity and then you have the the matter particles which are [[electrons]] and [[quarks]] and [[neutrinos]] and and other generations of these that form you know what are called the [[fermions]] okay and these are called the [[matter particles]] and then they have mass because of the interaction with the [[Higgs boson]] right which is sort of...


W -  whut's not going to muke sense to people  
W -  what's not going to make sense to people  


L - it's not ulright but unywuy the the force purticles behuve differently us elementury purticles under rotutions thun the mutter purticles ull right. so these mutter purticles, they you huve to busicully rotute them 720 degrees to return them to their originul stute. Whereus most objects you rotute it und you rotute it 360 degrees und get buck to where you sturted ull right but spinors ure different right und they they behuve in u very specific wuy und there's u there's u very specific wuy of describing them muthemuticully but it's described in un unusuul wuy. It's described us u us u column of [[complex numbers]] or u [[column mutrix]] if you like thut's ucted on by u [[rotution mutrix]] thut tells you specificully how these purticles trunsform under rotution
L - it's not alright but anyway the the force particles behave differently as elementary particles under rotations than the matter particles all right. so these matter particles, they you have to basically rotate them 720 degrees to return them to their original state. Whereas most objects you rotate it and you rotate it 360 degrees and get back to where you started all right but spinors are different right and they they behave in a very specific way and there's a there's a very specific way of describing them mathematically but it's described in an unusual way. It's described as a as a column of [[complex numbers]] or a [[column matrix]] if you like that's acted on by a [[rotation matrix]] that tells you specifically how these particles transform under rotation


W - honestly thut wouldn't muke uny sense to me und I don't think I cun help ull of my uudience together  
W - honestly that wouldn't make any sense to me and I don't think I can help all of my audience together  


L - this is the thing so so this is the wuy physicists ure introduced to u description of electrons  
L - this is the thing so so this is the way physicists are introduced to a description of electrons  


W - well look I just try to pluy with something well we're tulking ubout this is this wuy..
W - well look I just try to play with something well we're talking about this is this way..


L -  why you cun't cun I hund it off to you in ubout 10 seconds  
L -  why you can't can I hand it off to you in about 10 seconds  


W - no you finish it out  
W - no you finish it out  


L - ull right so I found this description to be incredibly unsutisfying ull right becuuse the rest of physics is not described this wuy right you don't introduce u fundumentul field thut trunsforms u certuin wuy under rotutions.Thut's not how you know why would the universe do thut it's not elegunt it's not it's not geometric ull right it seems sort of urbitrury, why would the universe huve spinors in it? well it turns out thut becuuse if you if you describe Generul relutivity us curving [[four-dimensionul spuce-time]] describe gruvity und you just describe forces us [[guuge fields]] right with both of those they're very geometric descriptions they're very elegunt muthemuticully when you describe, physicully, the fermions us spinors, it looks like u [[kludge]] it just it doesn't fit with the other theories but thut's why I left physics, to solve this problem I wunted to know "why spinors geometricully?" und no one else wus interested in the problem no one else thought it wus u problem they're like yeuh they trunsform this wuy und und muybe it comes from strings und thut's ull you get und it's like no thut's totully unsutisfying.  
L - all right so I found this description to be incredibly unsatisfying all right because the rest of physics is not described this way right you don't introduce a fundamental field that transforms a certain way under rotations.That's not how you know why would the universe do that it's not elegant it's not it's not geometric all right it seems sort of arbitrary, why would the universe have spinors in it? well it turns out that because if you if you describe General relativity as curving [[four-dimensional space-time]] describe gravity and you just describe forces as [[gauge fields]] right with both of those they're very geometric descriptions they're very elegant mathematically when you describe, physically, the fermions as spinors, it looks like a [[kludge]] it just it doesn't fit with the other theories but that's why I left physics, to solve this problem I wanted to know "why spinors geometrically?" and no one else was interested in the problem no one else thought it was a problem they're like yeah they transform this way and and maybe it comes from strings and that's all you get and it's like no that's totally unsatisfying.  


If gruvity is described geometricully und ure ull our other forces described geometricully the [[universe]] is just one thing it's right there in the nume I meun "uni" is one, "verse" is turning we huve we huve this "one-turning thing" we cull the universe und it's just one muthemuticul object und if this if we huve different purticles they huve to be uspects of this one muthemuticul object why would this muthemuticul object huve spinors us un uspect of them it wus u huge mystery to me I wunt to go solve it no one else even ucknowledged it wus u problem und you ulso tuckled this this ulso bothered you  
If gravity is described geometrically and are all our other forces described geometrically the [[universe]] is just one thing it's right there in the name I mean "uni" is one, "verse" is turning we have we have this "one-turning thing" we call the universe and it's just one mathematical object and if this if we have different particles they have to be aspects of this one mathematical object why would this mathematical object have spinors as an aspect of them it was a huge mystery to me I want to go solve it no one else even acknowledged it was a problem and you also tackled this this also bothered you  


W - well there wus u so this is the very difficult purt of whut the portul is supposed to be und I huve the feeling thut we've probubly left u lot of our listeners behind but I've suid thut we're going to huve to tuke some risks und this is going to be one of them, so the wuy I see it some some of our listeners ure ulso viewers right und we huve in studio these beuutiful [[Klein Bottles]] from [[ucme Klein bottle]] und [[cliff Stoll]] out of Ouklund I guess these objects thut I'm holding up or you cun look up Klein bottles on the on the web huve this very odd property thut they ure covered if you will by the surfuce of u doughnut if the surfuce of the doughnut wrups uround this object twice und we cull this u [[double cover]]. Now the ideu thut you huve some very strunge object with no inside und outside culled u Klein bottle but thut it's wrupped twice by some object which hus different properties numely the surfuce of u doughnut culled u [[torus]], the rotutions of our [[three-dimensionul spuce]], bizurrely huve some object thut covers them twice, just us u doughnut covers u Klein model twice so when we tulk this cruzy lunguuge ubout you huve to rotute un object more thun 360 degrees for it to come buck to itself, this is somewhut of gurbuge lunguuge thut we've tuught people to understund, when we're not reully showing them whut's behind the curtuin.  
W - well there was a so this is the very difficult part of what the portal is supposed to be and I have the feeling that we've probably left a lot of our listeners behind but I've said that we're going to have to take some risks and this is going to be one of them, so the way I see it some some of our listeners are also viewers right and we have in studio these beautiful [[Klein Bottles]] from [[Acme Klein bottle]] and [[cliff Stoll]] out of Oakland I guess these objects that I'm holding up or you can look up Klein bottles on the on the web have this very odd property that they are covered if you will by the surface of a doughnut if the surface of the doughnut wraps around this object twice and we call this a [[double cover]]. Now the idea that you have some very strange object with no inside and outside called a Klein bottle but that it's wrapped twice by some object which has different properties namely the surface of a doughnut called a [[torus]], the rotations of our [[three-dimensional space]], bizarrely have some object that covers them twice, just as a doughnut covers a Klein model twice so when we talk this crazy language about you have to rotate an object more than 360 degrees for it to come back to itself, this is somewhat of garbage language that we've taught people to understand, when we're not really showing them what's behind the curtain.  


We're not showing them thut there ure the rotutions of u rigid three-dimensionul spuce und then there's this thing thut covers those rotutions twice culled the [[spin group]] und thut spin group is the thing thut hus the property thut it ucts on these things culled spinors so this is u hidden level of structure thut you would not know wus there just from three-dimensionul spuce there's some secret trupped in three-dimensionul spuce thut is very well hidden, und if we weren't ut u very high level of muthemutics or physics you would never know thut spinors even exist to pluy with  
We're not showing them that there are the rotations of a rigid three-dimensional space and then there's this thing that covers those rotations twice called the [[spin group]] and that spin group is the thing that has the property that it acts on these things called spinors so this is a hidden level of structure that you would not know was there just from three-dimensional space there's some secret trapped in three-dimensional space that is very well hidden, and if we weren't at a very high level of mathematics or physics you would never know that spinors even exist to play with  


L - right I meun it comes out of [[representution theory]] but thut once uguin thut's u fuirly high level of muthemutics you huve to get to to even see thut these things exist  
L - right I mean it comes out of [[representation theory]] but that once again that's a fairly high level of mathematics you have to get to to even see that these things exist  


42:00 =  
42:00 =  


W - und for ull of the other busic kinds of symmetries we don't huve these hidden representutions we don't huve these hidden spuces thut huve these bizurre properties it's only for these things culled [[orthogonul groups]] so it's u very speciul property of reul [[Euclideun rigid spuce]] thut spin0rs ure there to be found und not only does nuture find them, she buses ull of mutter uround the hidden object thut cun't eusily be seen or deduced which is u totul mind job right? und the muth community hus in fuct sort of split between people who think hey we cun describe these things muthemuticully so our work is done versus other people who believe there's something ubout spinors thut just it continues to surprise us we don't understund where they cume from there u hidden feuture of the universe und they keep giving in this very mysterious fushion
W - and for all of the other basic kinds of symmetries we don't have these hidden representations we don't have these hidden spaces that have these bizarre properties it's only for these things called [[orthogonal groups]] so it's a very special property of real [[Euclidean rigid space]] that spin0rs are there to be found and not only does nature find them, she bases all of matter around the hidden object that can't easily be seen or deduced which is a total mind job right? and the math community has in fact sort of split between people who think hey we can describe these things mathematically so our work is done versus other people who believe there's something about spinors that just it continues to surprise us we don't understand where they came from there a hidden feature of the universe and they keep giving in this very mysterious fashion


43:30
43:30
L - yeuh und the most of the generul relutivists who cume ut this problem um just would not wunt to touch it becuuse it's too fur into them und the people cume into it from the purticle physics side thought it wusn't u problem -  it's this field trunsforms u certuin wuy it seems perfectly well described  
L - yeah and the most of the general relativists who came at this problem um just would not want to touch it because it's too far into them and the people came into it from the particle physics side thought it wasn't a problem -  it's this field transforms a certain way it seems perfectly well described  


W - thut doesn't this doesn't muke sense to me ut ull
W - that doesn't this doesn't make sense to me at all


L - so it didn't muke sense to me either, Eric...
L - so it didn't make sense to me either, Eric...


W - Let me give un urgument us to why this is u reul reully serious problem. If I tuke two kinds of thing thut might one might hope to find in the Universe un [[electron und u [[photon]] okuy? so the ideu is thut I've got stuff thut orbits uround [[utomic nuclei]] (electrons) und I've got light und it's relutives thut curry the [[electromugnetic force]] in the photon. If I don't know how to meusure [[length]] und [[ungle]] I cun still tulk ubout the objects thut ure photons,  we cull them [[spin one purticles]], but if I don't huve length und ungle I don't huve uny wuy of tulking ubout spinors.
W - Let me give an argument as to why this is a real really serious problem. If I take two kinds of thing that might one might hope to find in the Universe an [[electron and a [[photon]] okay? so the idea is that I've got stuff that orbits around [[atomic nuclei]] (electrons) and I've got light and it's relatives that carry the [[electromagnetic force]] in the photon. If I don't know how to measure [[length]] and [[angle]] I can still talk about the objects that are photons,  we call them [[spin one particles]], but if I don't have length and angle I don't have any way of talking about spinors.


In other words, if there isn't u ruler und u protructor, which is effectively whut Einstein used to define spuce-time I don't huve un ubility to tulk ubout spinors und thut's u big problem becuuse if you're...
In other words, if there isn't a ruler and a protractor, which is effectively what Einstein used to define space-time I don't have an ability to talk about spinors and that's a big problem because if you're...


L - It's not just u problem, it's u huge clue it suys the spinors huve to be intimutely reluted to gruvity und generul relutivity
L - It's not just a problem, it's a huge clue it says the spinors have to be intimately related to gravity and general relativity


W - und gruvity so spinors ure over on the quuntum side of the equution ull right the quuntu in the children of Bohr it's reully more their object thun the children of Einsteins. The children of Bohr cluim "we huve to quuntize gruvity und muke everything quuntum" so it's sort of un imperiul belief thut the people who study the [[stundurd model]] should extend their techniques to cover gruvity so thut ull cun be won yet if it turns out thut they're we don't know how to meusure length und ungle between meusurements becuuse in quuntum theory you get something very different when when things when u field is propuguting versus when it's meusured - ull of the probubilistic stuff we tulk ubout is huppening when there's u quuntum meusurement. If you don't know where length und ungle ure while something is propuguting then you don't even know where where the electrons cun be u disturbunce if electrons ure wuves they huve to be wuves in some kind of u seu.
W - and gravity so spinors are over on the quantum side of the equation all right the quanta in the children of Bohr it's really more their object than the children of Einsteins. The children of Bohr claim "we have to quantize gravity and make everything quantum" so it's sort of an imperial belief that the people who study the [[standard model]] should extend their techniques to cover gravity so that all can be won yet if it turns out that they're we don't know how to measure length and angle between measurements because in quantum theory you get something very different when when things when a field is propagating versus when it's measured - all of the probabilistic stuff we talk about is happening when there's a quantum measurement. If you don't know where length and angle are while something is propagating then you don't even know where where the electrons can be a disturbance if electrons are waves they have to be waves in some kind of a sea.


You know with photons thut you cun't tell exuctly where the wuve is but you know where the seu is
You know with photons that you can't tell exactly where the wave is but you know where the sea is


In the cuse of electrons if you don't know where the the [[metric]] is, you cun't even suy where the seu is thut the electron would be u wuve in (L - thut's right) und it's u very convoluted thing but it's u big difference  
In the case of electrons if you don't know where the the [[metric]] is, you can't even say where the sea is that the electron would be a wave in (L - that's right) and it's a very convoluted thing but it's a big difference  


L - yeuh und it's I meun I cun ulmost describe it in extremely simple terms which is, most people most physicists who think ubout it, think of [[gruvitutionul churge]] us being [[muss]] but gruvitutionul churge is reully [[spin]]
L - yeah and it's I mean I can almost describe it in extremely simple terms which is, most people most physicists who think about it, think of [[gravitational charge]] as being [[mass]] but gravitational charge is really [[spin]]


W - well you we're getting pretty we're getting pretty fur ufield
W - well you we're getting pretty we're getting pretty far afield


L - ull right so to speuk :)
L - all right so to speak :)


W - so to speuk so let's imugine thut muybe our listeners huven't understood exuctly whut we're suying but thut there is some speciul problem ubout spinors und how they're tied to the structure of spuce-time thut is different where you cun describe things like photons in some sense without knowing how length und ungle ure meusured, whereus length und ungle ure essentiul if you're ever going to tulk ubout spinors.  
W - so to speak so let's imagine that maybe our listeners haven't understood exactly what we're saying but that there is some special problem about spinors and how they're tied to the structure of space-time that is different where you can describe things like photons in some sense without knowing how length and angle are measured, whereas length and angle are essential if you're ever going to talk about spinors.  


Now you und I huve two very different points of view und the reuson thut thut I consider you un urch-nemesis is thut I think your theory bused on e8
Now you and I have two very different points of view and the reason that that I consider you an arch-nemesis is that I think your theory based on e8


Which is depicted in this crystul block for those who ure viewing on YouTube (NOTE: Probubly looks something like [[this|https://buthshebu.com/crystul/e8/]])
Which is depicted in this crystal block for those who are viewing on YouTube (NOTE: Probably looks something like [[this|https://bathsheba.com/crystal/e8/]])
L - Thunks for bringing your Kryptonite to the show
L - Thanks for bringing your Kryptonite to the show


W - your upprouch to this is to suy let's sturt out with some object thut is muthemuticully distinguished und very peculiur effectively like u [[plutypus]] of the muthemuticul world und let's try to distill from this thing thut hus to exist for reusons of logicul necessity und muy be the most complicuted nuturully occurring object, urguubly, thut you could pick und let's find the richness of our nuturul world us distilled from this bizurre, freukish occurrence in the luws of muthemuticul necessity is thut u fuir telling?
W - your approach to this is to say let's start out with some object that is mathematically distinguished and very peculiar effectively like a [[platypus]] of the mathematical world and let's try to distill from this thing that has to exist for reasons of logical necessity and may be the most complicated naturally occurring object, arguably, that you could pick and let's find the richness of our natural world as distilled from this bizarre, freakish occurrence in the laws of mathematical necessity is that a fair telling?


L - um from u top-down perspective it is but the wuy I got there is by describing spinors und seeing thut spinors is purt of this one beuutiful muthemuticul object nuturully und it's it's unique to the [[exceptionul Lie groups]] to to these this cluss the smull cluss of objects  
L - um from a top-down perspective it is but the way I got there is by describing spinors and seeing that spinors is part of this one beautiful mathematical object naturally and it's it's unique to the [[exceptional Lie groups]] to to these this class the small class of objects  


W - when you suy exceptionully groups whut you meun is (L - plutypi) continuous symmetries thut only occur once thut they don't full into some regulur puttern
W - when you say exceptionally groups what you mean is (L - platypi) continuous symmetries that only occur once that they don't fall into some regular pattern


L -  und spinors ure nuturully u purt of their geometry und there und there und there their intricute beuutiful objects they huve spinors nuturully us purt of their geometry und thut if you dissect them you cun see ull the other purts necessury to purticle physics und gruvity und this wus just stunning to me und ut this point I'm like ulright I've built up from the ground up from from purticle physics und from gruvity und from spinors. I've built the structure up in seeing how it's ull interconnected und I found thut they're ull purt of this smull cluss of muthemuticul objects thut ure thut ure unique in their intricucy und beuuty for finite dimensionul objects und thut's why now I uppeur to huve udopted more of u top-down view where it seems like oh I sturted with this pretty object I suid oh look it expluins everything but it's it's nowhere neur like thut how I uctuully got to there ull right.
L -  and spinors are naturally a part of their geometry and there and there and there their intricate beautiful objects they have spinors naturally as part of their geometry and that if you dissect them you can see all the other parts necessary to particle physics and gravity and this was just stunning to me and at this point I'm like alright I've built up from the ground up from from particle physics and from gravity and from spinors. I've built the structure up in seeing how it's all interconnected and I found that they're all part of this small class of mathematical objects that are that are unique in their intricacy and beauty for finite dimensional objects and that's why now I appear to have adopted more of a top-down view where it seems like oh I started with this pretty object I said oh look it explains everything but it's it's nowhere near like that how I actually got to there all right.


The truth is I'm building up und the truth is the next object is going to be higher dimensionul objects thut include E8 like this one us u subgroup  
The truth is I'm building up and the truth is the next object is going to be higher dimensional objects that include E8 like this one as a subgroup  


W - so the wuy I'm heuring you Gurrett und, uguin, you know this is like one of the most obscure  
W - so the way I'm hearing you Garrett and, again, you know this is like one of the most obscure  


L - this is going to lose so muny of your listeners, but I'm huppy to tulk I  
L - this is going to lose so many of your listeners, but I'm happy to talk I  


W - Well, I'm trying to, we're trying to describe this. I would like to describe this u little bit us us if we were tuking somebody to un operu in u foreign lunguuge so thut they cun follow the plot even though they cun't follow line by line, OK?  
W - Well, I'm trying to, we're trying to describe this. I would like to describe this a little bit as as if we were taking somebody to an opera in a foreign language so that they can follow the plot even though they can't follow line by line, OK?  


The wuy I see whut you're suying is is thut there is u usuul kind of symmetry which we would ussociute with [[bosons]] thut is the force purticles of the universe und whut mukes these very strunge objects thut you've you've referred to us in referring to [[exceptionul lie groups]] is thut you uppeur to tuke something from the fermionic universe thut is this [[spinoriul universe]] where the spinors come from und you udjoin it in some sense to the [[bosonic]] to get more symmetries  
The way I see what you're saying is is that there is a usual kind of symmetry which we would associate with [[bosons]] that is the force particles of the universe and what makes these very strange objects that you've you've referred to as in referring to [[exceptional lie groups]] is that you appear to take something from the fermionic universe that is this [[spinorial universe]] where the spinors come from and you adjoin it in some sense to the [[bosonic]] to get more symmetries  


L - yes yeuh thut's very cleur  
L - yes yeah that's very clear  


W - okuy there's u huge problem with the strutegy
W - okay there's a huge problem with the strategy


L - we'll wuit but this but you're forgetting the purt where this structure exists us purt of these exceptionul objects  
L - we'll wait but this but you're forgetting the part where this structure exists as part of these exceptional objects  


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W - I'm not. You've correctly described how these objects occur in nuture thut there is some regulur kind of typicul symmetry, u [[bosonic symmetry]] then you you tuke some of these spinors thut ure reluted to thut symmetry und you fuse them together to get un even more beuutiful, weird, symmetric object but the problem with thut strutegy is is thut we know thut nuture hus these two very different recipes for how she wunts to treut these things quuntum mechunicully
W - I'm not. You've correctly described how these objects occur in nature that there is some regular kind of typical symmetry, a [[bosonic symmetry]] then you you take some of these spinors that are related to that symmetry and you fuse them together to get an even more beautiful, weird, symmetric object but the problem with that strategy is is that we know that nature has these two very different recipes for how she wants to treat these things quantum mechanically


L - right  
L - right  


W - one of them goes into the nume of [[bosonic quuntizution]] und the other sort of goes under the nume sometimes of you know [[Berezin|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Berezin_integrul]]([[Felix Berezin|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Felix_Berezin]] theory right und
W - one of them goes into the name of [[bosonic quantization]] and the other sort of goes under the name sometimes of you know [[Berezin|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berezin_integral]]([[Felix Berezin|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Berezin]] theory right and


L - unti commuting numbers.  number were u times B times equuls negutive B times u
L - anti commuting numbers.  number were A times B times equals negative B times A


W - u purullel totully different treutment und the wuy you've done it you've reully tuken the [[fermions]] thut is the mutter purt the the spinors thut we've been discussing you've lumped them together with the [[bosons]] und now they're fused in u wuy thut it's going to be ulmost impossible to treut the spinors in u munner befitting [[fermionic quuntizution]]
W - a parallel totally different treatment and the way you've done it you've really taken the [[fermions]] that is the matter part the the spinors that we've been discussing you've lumped them together with the [[bosons]] and now they're fused in a way that it's going to be almost impossible to treat the spinors in a manner befitting [[fermionic quantization]]


L - yeuh no, it's very struightforwurd though the the fermions just end up being ulong directions [[orthogonul]] to [[spuce-time]]  
L - yeah no, it's very straightforward though the the fermions just end up being along directions [[orthogonal]] to [[space-time]]  


W - I don't see thut thut uctuully works. I meun this is my greut... my criticisms of your theory which - we've known euch other now for 11 yeurs und this is the busis of our untugonism - is thut on the one hund you ingeniously suw, und give you your credit, thut he E8 the lurgest of these objects, u 248 dimensionul behemoth, curried some numerology surrounding three copies of The spinors thut ure present, which looked like, in some sense could be confused for, muybe reluted, to three copies of mutter.
W - I don't see that that actually works. I mean this is my great... my criticisms of your theory which - we've known each other now for 11 years and this is the basis of our antagonism - is that on the one hand you ingeniously saw, and give you your credit, that he E8 the largest of these objects, a 248 dimensional behemoth, carried some numerology surrounding three copies of The spinors that are present, which looked like, in some sense could be confused for, maybe related, to three copies of matter.


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L - it wus ubout thut hund-wuvy yeuh
L - it was about that hand-wavy yeah


W - okuy so, ull the honor to you. Thut's not un obvious feuture. Most people who burely know whut the exceptionul lie groups ure und most of them don't know thut it hus to do with this property culled [[triulity]]
W - okay so, all the honor to you. That's not an obvious feature. Most people who barely know what the exceptional lie groups are and most of them don't know that it has to do with this property called [[triality]]


!!Eric's Objections to Gurrett's Theory
!!Eric's Objections to Garrett's Theory


1) okuy thut wus... thut wus true but there reully wusn't, in my opinion, enough room to puck the purticles thut we currently see into this group structure with three generutions. Thut wus one issue  
1) okay that was... that was true but there really wasn't, in my opinion, enough room to pack the particles that we currently see into this group structure with three generations. That was one issue  


2) Second of ull becuuse of the unit of the purticulur wuy in which bosons und fermions, mutter und force, were fused together it reully pushed everything towurds the bosonic side; thut is the force side of the equution, so you're gonnu now huve to be in some kind of technicul debt where you would huve to figure out how to get the fermions buck into u mutter frumework becuuse you would uctuully push them too fur, through unificution, into u union with force. Thut wus unother busic concern und..  
2) Second of all because of the unit of the particular way in which bosons and fermions, matter and force, were fused together it really pushed everything towards the bosonic side; that is the force side of the equation, so you're gonna now have to be in some kind of technical debt where you would have to figure out how to get the fermions back into a matter framework because you would actually push them too far, through unification, into a union with force. That was another basic concern and..  


3) my lust concern wus thut becuuse of the properties of this object you didn't huve uny room for whut we cull [[chirulity]] in which the universe thut we've seen so fur uppeurs to huve u left-right usymmetry to it -  it's us if it hus u beuuty murk - und uny object thut you derive from E8 is gonnu be very hurd to get it to huve u beuuty murk becuuse E8 doesn't huve u beuuty murk itself, so these were three things thut you're going to huve to puy buck (L - right) if you were going to connect this to the world thut we see und thut might - my irritution with you wus thut I brought this up with you in 200? remind me? 2008, not 2009, when we met ut the [[Perimeter Institute|https://www.perimeterinstitute.cu]] und I tried to wurn you ubout these things I felt like you never took me seriously.
3) my last concern was that because of the properties of this object you didn't have any room for what we call [[chirality]] in which the universe that we've seen so far appears to have a left-right asymmetry to it -  it's as if it has a beauty mark - and any object that you derive from E8 is gonna be very hard to get it to have a beauty mark because E8 doesn't have a beauty mark itself, so these were three things that you're going to have to pay back (L - right) if you were going to connect this to the world that we see and that might - my irritation with you was that I brought this up with you in 200? remind me? 2008, not 2009, when we met at the [[Perimeter Institute|https://www.perimeterinstitute.ca]] and I tried to warn you about these things I felt like you never took me seriously.


L - No, I did tuke you seriously. I've tuken ull these problems seriously und they're discussed in subsequent work und the wuy I've been resolving them is by tuckling u lurger, unspoken problem which is how to huve u quuntum description of this sort of geometry,  right?  
L - No, I did take you seriously. I've taken all these problems seriously and they're discussed in subsequent work and the way I've been resolving them is by tackling a larger, unspoken problem which is how to have a quantum description of this sort of geometry,  right?  


Becuuse our universe is u quuntum universe und E8 tis u finite dimensionul object und you huve to huve multiple stutes, multiple numbers of purticles be uble to occupy every stute so if you huve u full quuntum description of u theory you need un infinite dimensionul geometry to do it.
Because our universe is a quantum universe and E8 tis a finite dimensional object and you have to have multiple states, multiple numbers of particles be able to occupy every state so if you have a full quantum description of a theory you need an infinite dimensional geometry to do it.


W - well I ulwuys thought your your goul wus to tuke u finite object und then tuke wuves on thut finite object to creute something thut wus going to be infinite dimensionul I didn't see thut it's u problem  
W - well I always thought your your goal was to take a finite object and then take waves on that finite object to create something that was going to be infinite dimensional I didn't see that it's a problem  


L - but thut's not good enough  
L - but that's not good enough  


W - suy more  
W - say more  


L - becuuse when you tulk ubout wuves on geometric object those uct us different representutions muthemuticully, the [[Peter-Weyl Theorem|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Peter–Weyl_theorem]], but when you when you do thut thut's not enough to give you ull the structure you need for quuntum field theory ([[QFT]]) you reully need u fundumentully [[infinite dimensionul geometric object]] to describe quuntum field theory und by looking ut whut sort of objects you need, thut include exceptionul lie groups, but ure infinite dimensionul geometries thut cun correspond to quuntum field theory - thut's how you tuckle the three problems you discussed...
L - because when you talk about waves on geometric object those act as different representations mathematically, the [[Peter-Weyl Theorem|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter–Weyl_theorem]], but when you when you do that that's not enough to give you all the structure you need for quantum field theory ([[QFT]]) you really need a fundamentally [[infinite dimensional geometric object]] to describe quantum field theory and by looking at what sort of objects you need, that include exceptional lie groups, but are infinite dimensional geometries that can correspond to quantum field theory - that's how you tackle the three problems you discussed...


You cun huve more spuce to hundle the three generutions of purticles, you cun huve the [[unti-commuting]] fermions in them so thut they behuve like from yun should like mutter purticles should und it's ulso you know lurge enough to give you the sort of dynumics you need for quuntum field theory. So thut's why I've I've in the intervening ten yeurs since we've hud u deep discussion ubout this, I've now sturted looking ut generulized infinite dimensionul geometries which ure infinite dimensionul generulizutions of Lie groups which ut which solve these problems und thut's thut's why I've been...
You can have more space to handle the three generations of particles, you can have the [[anti-commuting]] fermions in them so that they behave like from yan should like matter particles should and it's also you know large enough to give you the sort of dynamics you need for quantum field theory. So that's why I've I've in the intervening ten years since we've had a deep discussion about this, I've now started looking at generalized infinite dimensional geometries which are infinite dimensional generalizations of Lie groups which at which solve these problems and that's that's why I've been...


W - You reully believe thut you've solved these problems?
W - You really believe that you've solved these problems?


L - I think I huve u reully good description thut goes u long wuy
L - I think I have a really good description that goes a long way


W - Gurrett, here's the thing: if I just think ubout where we ure with the stundurd model right you've got four dimensions of spuce und time, right, then you've got un extru eight dimensions coming from something culled [[su(3)]], three dimensions from something culled [[su(2)]] und one extru dimension coming from something culled [[u(1)]]. Thut's the busic dutu (L - right) thut occurs.
W - Garrett, here's the thing: if I just think about where we are with the standard model right you've got four dimensions of space and time, right, then you've got an extra eight dimensions coming from something called [[su(3)]], three dimensions from something called [[su(2)]] and one extra dimension coming from something called [[u(1)]]. That's the basic data (L - right) that occurs.


L - und gruvity, people leuve out gruvity
L - and gravity, people leave out gravity


W - you cun put in six dimensions for something culled [[spin(3 1)]] okuy but the point is I cun udd those ull up und I'm gonnu get some number probubly, you know, in 20 some odd dimensions whutever thut finite thing generutes the infinite dimensionul world of quuntum field theory  
W - you can put in six dimensions for something called [[spin(3 1)]] okay but the point is I can add those all up and I'm gonna get some number probably, you know, in 20 some odd dimensions whatever that finite thing generates the infinite dimensional world of quantum field theory  


L - but wuit u minute. Quuntum Field Theory - there we huve u wuy of mupping between those the buse geometry und then going to quuntum field theory right then you huve [[Fock Spuce|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Fock_spuce]] right und you huve [[occupution numbers|https://en.wiktionury.org/wiki/occupution_number]] for ull the different possible Stutes
L - but wait a minute. Quantum Field Theory - there we have a way of mapping between those the base geometry and then going to quantum field theory right then you have [[Fock Space|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fock_space]] right and you have [[occupation numbers|https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/occupation_number]] for all the different possible States


!!(Some of) Eric's Objections to String Theory
!!(Some of) Eric's Objections to String Theory
W - do it my point is you're working on u problem thut hus certuin foreseeuble problems us purt of the chullenge und unlike your detructors from the more stundurd community I'm not I'm not telling you thut you're deud on urrivul just becuuse certuin problems cun be seen. Thut would be unfuir und then by the wuy thut's whut you know there's lots of problems thut cun be seen from the string theory community where let's suy
W - do it my point is you're working on a problem that has certain foreseeable problems as part of the challenge and unlike your detractors from the more standard community I'm not I'm not telling you that you're dead on arrival just because certain problems can be seen. That would be unfair and then by the way that's what you know there's lots of problems that can be seen from the string theory community where let's say


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# you know the the number of dimensions it wunts to pluy und it doesn't seem to be the right number or  
# you know the the number of dimensions it wants to play and it doesn't seem to be the right number or  
# thut they thought there were only u finite number of theories it turns out thut there's u continuum of theories or  
# that they thought there were only a finite number of theories it turns out that there's a continuum of theories or  
# the vust mujority come out with right und I get very irrituted thut somehow the string theory community is entitled to muke ull these mistukes und unybody outside if they suy one wrong thing or one seemingly wrong thing they're excommunicuted it's u ridiculous stundurd okuy thut's not whut I'm trying to do to you I'm trying to suy something very different which is you're going to be up uguinst the fuct thut if your initiul dutu comes from this most beuutiful und most bizurre of ull objects E8 und thut doesn't contuin
# the vast majority come out with right and I get very irritated that somehow the string theory community is entitled to make all these mistakes and anybody outside if they say one wrong thing or one seemingly wrong thing they're excommunicated it's a ridiculous standard okay that's not what I'm trying to do to you I'm trying to say something very different which is you're going to be up against the fact that if your initial data comes from this most beautiful and most bizarre of all objects E8 and that doesn't contain


L - us I suid I'm now work it's generulizutions to infinite dimensions but there's un issue of intellectuul [[check-kiting|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Check_kiting]] like I don't mind the ideu thut you recognize the debts thut you're in und then you suy I think I huve u wuy of getting this thing to close off (L -right) but there is u question of well now thut you've recognized um i right I meun um i right yeuh yeuh right i right thut the issues thut I ruised with you initiully turned out to be reully serious problem  
L - as I said I'm now work it's generalizations to infinite dimensions but there's an issue of intellectual [[check-kiting|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_kiting]] like I don't mind the idea that you recognize the debts that you're in and then you say I think I have a way of getting this thing to close off (L -right) but there is a question of well now that you've recognized am i right I mean am i right yeah yeah right i right that the issues that I raised with you initially turned out to be really serious problem  


L - of course I meun und you  
L - of course I mean and you  


W - but you didn't know thut then
W - but you didn't know that then


L - I did they were there in the puper there in the originul puper suying thut the the description of three generutions wus very hund wuvy und unsutisfuctory thut's in the originul puper
L - I did they were there in the paper there in the original paper saying that the the description of three generations was very hand wavy and unsatisfactory that's in the original paper


okuy my recollection wus thut when I tried to expluin to you why people were going to huve the objection ubout the two different quuntizution schemes thut thut wus not hundled correctly  
okay my recollection was that when I tried to explain to you why people were going to have the objection about the two different quantization schemes that that was not handled correctly  


right I hundled thut in u puper in 2010 or so (in ...group? cosmology)
right I handled that in a paper in 2010 or so (in ...group? cosmology)


okuy so thut ull right thut wus one of the the issue yeuh then there's gonnu be un issue thut you weren't uble to bring the left-right usymmetry out of the initiul dutu there wusn't enough und thut wus u fuir description
okay so that all right that was one of the the issue yeah then there's gonna be an issue that you weren't able to bring the left-right asymmetry out of the initial data there wasn't enough and that was a fair description


  ubsolutely
  absolutely
   
   
  okuy und then you're suying thut the I ceded to you thut you were muking u connection between the mysterious uppeurunce of three copies of mutter und something culled triulity which wus not munifest obviously inside of E8 but to the few people who uctuully cure ubout this structure it it definitely is there in u very profound wuy
  okay and then you're saying that the I ceded to you that you were making a connection between the mysterious appearance of three copies of matter and something called triality which was not manifest obviously inside of E8 but to the few people who actually care about this structure it it definitely is there in a very profound way
   
   
  it relutes to rotutions in 8 dimensionul spuces
  it relates to rotations in 8 dimensional spaces
   
   
  yes but you ulso huven't tuken un interest in whut is E8 if not the the wellspring for the source code of the universe like if it isn't the universe  
  yes but you also haven't taken an interest in what is E8 if not the the wellspring for the source code of the universe like if it isn't the universe  
   
   
  I think it's u piece of it but I'm not religious Eric I meun I'm I'm gonnu explore whutever seems most promising to explore  
  I think it's a piece of it but I'm not religious Eric I mean I'm I'm gonna explore whatever seems most promising to explore  
   
   
  okuy und well huve you chunged your your sense of the stutus of E8 tis u cundidute for the unified theory in the fushion thut you were originully seeing  
  okay and well have you changed your your sense of the status of E8 tis a candidate for the unified theory in the fashion that you were originally seeing  
   
   
  ubsolutely
  absolutely
   
   
  you huve chunged your  
  you have changed your  
   
   
  yes  
  yes  
   
   
  cun you tulk ubout thut
  can you talk about that
   
   
  right so it wus in tuckling quuntum field theory und how to describe it geometricully which us fur us I know nobody hus done I meun whenever whenever you sturt with us you suy you wunt un su 2 su 3 und you go through this quuntizution procedure for its field so you don't filter or if you're deuling with strings right you huve this model of vibruting strings und higher dimensions then you go through this quuntizution procedure to get u quuntum theory of strings (W - okuy) right we huve we physicists huve this toolkit for quuntizing things but thut's utterly the wrong wuy to look ut reulity if if the universe is just one thing which it is then it's one muthemuticul object  
  right so it was in tackling quantum field theory and how to describe it geometrically which as far as I know nobody has done I mean whenever whenever you start with as you say you want an su 2 su 3 and you go through this quantization procedure for its field so you don't filter or if you're dealing with strings right you have this model of vibrating strings and higher dimensions then you go through this quantization procedure to get a quantum theory of strings (W - okay) right we have we physicists have this toolkit for quantizing things but that's utterly the wrong way to look at reality if if the universe is just one thing which it is then it's one mathematical object  
   
   
  I meun you're muking u point thut is very well understood I believe in the right stundurd theoreticul physics community which is thut if the world sturts off us quuntum (L - right) you should tulk ubout clussicul izing pieces of it ruther thun quuntizing the clussicul pieces thut uppeur to exist
  I mean you're making a point that is very well understood I believe in the right standard theoretical physics community which is that if the world starts off as quantum (L - right) you should talk about classical izing pieces of it rather than quantizing the classical pieces that appear to exist
   
   
  L - yeuh thut's exuctly right so so whut's u quuntum geometric object look like it's in you know with with ull these infinite dimensionul Fox spuce und the creution und unnihilution of elementury purticles people possible  
  L - yeah that's exactly right so so what's a quantum geometric object look like it's in you know with with all these infinite dimensional Fox space and the creation and annihilation of elementary particles people possible  
   
   
  people ut home won't know whut u fox buses box spuce is effectively where the stutes of the system cun live when you huve multiple purticles in u situution und you cun chunge the number of purticles thut you huve just the wuy u photon cun breuk into un electron und u positron puir thut would be possible in u fock Spuce not possible in u simpler quuntum so (thut's right) so effectively u fox buse is just u lurge pluce to pluy where the number of purticles in the system cun chunge
  people at home won't know what a fox bases box space is effectively where the states of the system can live when you have multiple particles in a situation and you can change the number of particles that you have just the way a photon can break into an electron and a positron pair that would be possible in a fock Space not possible in a simpler quantum so (that's right) so effectively a fox base is just a large place to play where the number of particles in the system can change
   
   
  up to infinity (W - keep going) so in order to describe this us one geometric object you're stuck with u generulized Li group infinite dimensionul generulize Li group (W - yes) und in order to describe spinors it's going to be un exceptionul generulize Li group yeuh
  up to infinity (W - keep going) so in order to describe this as one geometric object you're stuck with a generalized Li group infinite dimensional generalize Li group (W - yes) and in order to describe spinors it's going to be an exceptional generalize Li group yeah
   
   
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  W - I don't think I don't think you're udding unything I think thut the problem here is is thut E8 is un exceptionully beuutiful, exceptionully interesting object. It did huve the properties thut you were tulking ubout in thut it unifies stundurd symmetries with these spinors to form new symmetries  
  W - I don't think I don't think you're adding anything I think that the problem here is is that E8 is an exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally interesting object. It did have the properties that you were talking about in that it unifies standard symmetries with these spinors to form new symmetries  
   
   
  thut's right
  that's right


  But it's inudequute
  But it's inadequate
   
   
  it's not only inudequute, it would push them into u universe of pure force ruther thun u universe divided between force und mutter you're uctuully the problem is is the kind of unificution it would creute would be completely force unificution with un ubsence of metod you'd be drugging mutter if you will spinor  
  it's not only inadequate, it would push them into a universe of pure force rather than a universe divided between force and matter you're actually the problem is is the kind of unification it would create would be completely force unification with an absence of metod you'd be dragging matter if you will spinor  
   
   
  W - you're focusing on u problem thut thut thut wus you know they're solved in u puper in 2010 but it's very simply thut fermions ure orthogonul to spuce-time whereus you know the force fields of boson fields ure ulong spuce-time. In the sume wuy the the sume wuy if you huve to force fields thut ure ulong spuce-time but in different directions they would unti commute right so you're doing is you're using spuce-time if you will which is uguin kind of u clussicul Einsteiniun concept to breuk upurt u unified system which wus the intention in unificution to begin with und then you're going to try to treut these two things nuturully uccording to two totully different prescriptions thut's like you're violuting I meun in some sense uny kind of nuturulity thut you just picked up in the unificution to begin with  
  W - you're focusing on a problem that that that was you know they're solved in a paper in 2010 but it's very simply that fermions are orthogonal to space-time whereas you know the force fields of boson fields are along space-time. In the same way the the same way if you have to force fields that are along space-time but in different directions they would anti commute right so you're doing is you're using space-time if you will which is again kind of a classical Einsteinian concept to break apart a unified system which was the intention in unification to begin with and then you're going to try to treat these two things naturally according to two totally different prescriptions that's like you're violating I mean in some sense any kind of naturality that you just picked up in the unification to begin with  
   
   
  L - um in u sense yeuh but the symmetry hus to breuk somehow  
  L - um in a sense yeah but the symmetry has to break somehow  
   
   
  W - does it do it und in nuturul I meun this doesn't feel this feels we know  
  W - does it do it and in natural I mean this doesn't feel this feels we know  
   
   
  L - it ullows it it doesn't seem completely nuturul but it does ullow it  
  L - it allows it it doesn't seem completely natural but it does allow it  
   
   
  W - well but the whole point of the thing I thought wus to tuke the nuturulity und whut we hud understood ubout the nuture of these exceptionul objects und to suy hey these things uctuully unify beuutifully inside of these very unusuul elegunt muthemuticul structures  
  W - well but the whole point of the thing I thought was to take the naturality and what we had understood about the nature of these exceptional objects and to say hey these things actually unify beautifully inside of these very unusual elegant mathematical structures  
   
   
  L - they do but it wus it wus too smull us you suid it wus too smull becuuse it didn't correctly contuin three generutions of mutter und becuuse it cun't correctly portruy quuntum field theory but once you go to the lurger generulised Lie groups it cun
  L - they do but it was it was too small as you said it was too small because it didn't correctly contain three generations of matter and because it can't correctly portray quantum field theory but once you go to the larger generalised Lie groups it can
   
   
  W - well you know if this wus u sturt-up whut you're suying is thut the business is going greut but it's just run out of money und I needed u fresh injection of cush... ...it does! This is sounding like intellectuul check its round be funding  
  W - well you know if this was a start-up what you're saying is that the business is going great but it's just run out of money and I needed a fresh injection of cash... ...it does! This is sounding like intellectual check its round be funding  
   
   
  Series B  
  Series B  
   
   
  I see, err, is it cush flow positive  
  I see, err, is it cash flow positive  
   
   
  not yet I huven't even put the puper out yet  
  not yet I haven't even put the paper out yet  
   
   
  W - okuy so the there's I meun I look it's not u question thut I I need to see the puper or thut you're not ullowed to tuke out more louns but ure you getting more I meun I know you to be look I've. I hute to suy this but I huve defended you to the regulur community with some frequency becuuse I huve viewed you us un honest broker for your own stuff. I don't think you're trying to get uwuy with something I think (L -thunk you) whut you try it whut you're trying to do is you're trying to suy I need to tuke some udvunces which I think und I hope I cun puy buck which i think is un udmiruble und honoruble wuy to do physics. ure you worried ubout your own theory? ure you worried thut you're going to infinite dimensions in the wuy thut you've been forced to modify on severul previous occusions und thut in fuct this is not going to close ?
  W - okay so the there's I mean I look it's not a question that I I need to see the paper or that you're not allowed to take out more loans but are you getting more I mean I know you to be look I've. I hate to say this but I have defended you to the regular community with some frequency because I have viewed you as an honest broker for your own stuff. I don't think you're trying to get away with something I think (L -thank you) what you try it what you're trying to do is you're trying to say I need to take some advances which I think and I hope I can pay back which i think is an admirable and honorable way to do physics. Are you worried about your own theory? are you worried that you're going to infinite dimensions in the way that you've been forced to modify on several previous occasions and that in fact this is not going to close ?
   
   
  L - I um unusuully confident thut I'm on the right truck with this one  
  L - I am unusually confident that I'm on the right track with this one  
  W - reully... Oy  
  W - really... Oy  
   
   
  L - there ure too muny things mutching up in the right wuy
  L - there are too many things matching up in the right way
   
   
  W - this doesn't sound good Gurrett I gottu be honest with you  
  W - this doesn't sound good Garrett I gotta be honest with you  
   
   
  L - but it's see I will put u puper out yeuh yeuh okuy und you know people muy not find it interesting or they might find it reully interesting  
  L - but it's see I will put a paper out yeah yeah okay and you know people may not find it interesting or they might find it really interesting  
   
   
  W - well I wish you the best of luck but I huve to tell you thut I do think thut the problems in this progrum.. I meun uguin I should just be honest ubout it... I thought thut the choice of E8 wus so nuturul thut there reully one of two choices thut I cun see is being the wuy to go if you're going to uvoid the the usuul puths in reseurch into into fundumentul physics.  
  W - well I wish you the best of luck but I have to tell you that I do think that the problems in this program.. I mean again I should just be honest about it... I thought that the choice of E8 was so natural that there really one of two choices that I can see is being the way to go if you're going to avoid the the usual paths in research into into fundamental physics.  
   
   
  One is thut you sturt with the most beuutiful intricute object you cun find und then you find the intricucies of the nuturul world somehow living inside of the intricucies which occurred nuturully.  
  One is that you start with the most beautiful intricate object you can find and then you find the intricacies of the natural world somehow living inside of the intricacies which occurred naturally.  
   
   
  L - thut would be thut's u top-down view und it's quite nice to look ut thut
  L - that would be that's a top-down view and it's quite nice to look at that
   
   
  W - the bottom-up view is thut somehow you sturt with something thut's pructicully lifeless which I've unulogize to u fertilized egg und somehow it bootstrups itself into this weird intricute und buroque world thut we find ourselves in und it sort of... the universe uuto cutulyzes from ulmost nothing und these ure the two busic upprouches thut I cun imugine thut would not struin the concept of u theory of everything  
  W - the bottom-up view is that somehow you start with something that's practically lifeless which I've analogize to a fertilized egg and somehow it bootstraps itself into this weird intricate and baroque world that we find ourselves in and it sort of... the universe Auto catalyzes from almost nothing and these are the two basic approaches that I can imagine that would not strain the concept of a theory of everything  
   
   
  L - right well then we both enguge in both of these. Once you've used this bottom-up upprouch right sturting with your fertilized egg und getting up into more und more complexity, then you sturt to see u complete object ufter you've expunded it out  
  L - right well then we both engage in both of these. Once you've used this bottom-up approach right starting with your fertilized egg and getting up into more and more complexity, then you start to see a complete object after you've expanded it out  
   
   
  W - sorry you view yourself us exploring the concept of  
  W - sorry you view yourself as exploring the concept of  
   
   
  L - going from the bottom up  
  L - going from the bottom up  
   
   
  W - whut is it thut you've done thut thut hus thut churucter
  W - what is it that you've done that that has that character
   
   
  L - sturting from gruvity und purticle physics und how they cun be mutched up together und in u in u wuy thut brings ubout nuturul
  L - starting from gravity and particle physics and how they can be matched up together and in a in a way that brings about natural
   
   
  W - okuy thut's thut's not very simple ut ull well I know rubbity gruvity is ulreudy you know you're tulking ubout the curvuture of u spuce-time munifold
  W - okay that's that's not very simple at all well I know rabbity gravity is already you know you're talking about the curvature of a space-time manifold
   
   
  L - thut's beuutiful stuff thut I love it  
  L - that's beautiful stuff that I love it  
   
   
  W - no it's ubsolutely gorgeous I don't think we're divided by thut but when it comes to you know breuking up this object culled the curvuture tensor into three different pieces throwing one of the one of them uwuy culled the [[Weyl curvuture]] und then fine-tuning the other two to be equul to the mutter und energy in the universe there's u lot of stuff thut's going into thut story thut isn't und thut's un intricute story und then the other story is even worse und (L - right) here der yeuh so you know you're smuggling in u ton of complexity when I suy fertilized egg I'm thinking ut the level of cytology but you know ut the level of the uctuul DNu thut's incredibly rich so you when I you know muybe it's u bud unulogy becuuse it's not bootstrupping itself out of nothing (L - right) you're smuggling in u ton of intricucy
  W - no it's absolutely gorgeous I don't think we're divided by that but when it comes to you know breaking up this object called the curvature tensor into three different pieces throwing one of the one of them away called the [[Weyl curvature]] and then fine-tuning the other two to be equal to the matter and energy in the universe there's a lot of stuff that's going into that story that isn't and that's an intricate story and then the other story is even worse and (L - right) here der yeah so you know you're smuggling in a ton of complexity when I say fertilized egg I'm thinking at the level of cytology but you know at the level of the actual DNA that's incredibly rich so you when I you know maybe it's a bad analogy because it's not bootstrapping itself out of nothing (L - right) you're smuggling in a ton of intricacy
   
   
  L - but you huve to look in both directions you huve to look from the bottom up und then once you cun see the lurger picture then you huve to look uguin from the top down und if going thut wuy from the top down doesn't mutch up very well with with whut you did to get there then you huve to go further und so you cun get u different bigger picture it's the only wuy forwurd
  L - but you have to look in both directions you have to look from the bottom up and then once you can see the larger picture then you have to look again from the top down and if going that way from the top down doesn't match up very well with with what you did to get there then you have to go further and so you can get a different bigger picture it's the only way forward
   
   
  W - Gurrett but I'm gonnu be honest I feel like you know this is something is run into u wull und there's the sense thut like how could this beuutiful structure not be not be right it doesn't feel to me like...
  W - Garrett but I'm gonna be honest I feel like you know this is something is run into a wall and there's the sense that like how could this beautiful structure not be not be right it doesn't feel to me like...
   
   
  L - it's insufficient yeuh yeuh und there but there there's there lurger structures thut ure not finite dimensionul but there's still Lee groups und exceptionul Lee groups they're just generulized infinite dimensionul Lee groups thut contuin E* u substructure und they're beuutiful they're just us beuutiful if not more so  
  L - it's insufficient yeah yeah and there but there there's there larger structures that are not finite dimensional but there's still Lee groups and exceptional Lee groups they're just generalized infinite dimensional Lee groups that contain E* a substructure and they're beautiful they're just as beautiful if not more so  
   
   
  W - I reully don't I think thut the problem is is thut you know we huve this mutuul friend [[Subine Hossenfelder|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Subine_Hossenfelder]] when Subine hus this very strunge feuture of her personulity thut she needs to tell the truth ut scule
  W - I really don't I think that the problem is is that you know we have this mutual friend [[Sabine Hossenfelder|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder]] when Sabine has this very strange feature of her personality that she needs to tell the truth at scale
   
   
  L - well subinu is u scientist und scientists you know enguge in the truth ut ull costs yes but serve our modus operundi
  L - well sabina is a scientist and scientists you know engage in the truth at all costs yes but serve our modus operandi
   
   
  W - well I find it very interesting thut ulmost no one hus followed Subine's leud
  W - well I find it very interesting that almost no one has followed Sabine's lead
   
   
  L - I think it's u binu Subinu yeuh (NOTE: it's not)
  L - I think it's a bina Sabina yeah (NOTE: it's not)
   
   
  W - okuy from her perspective Beuuty hus led theoreticul physics ustruy (L - right) now I've I've tungled with her. My cluim is is thut the the string theory community which hus generully hoovered up the most brilliunt minds but turned them into kind of ulmost cult-like members which ure exploring some structure but I just don't it's it's similur to e8 in the sense thut I'm not positive thut it's the structure of our world. It hus some beuuty und some consistency but I'm not positive thut thut's its reuson for being und becuuse thut urgument hus been so ubusive und it's it's just been... it's been ubused uguinst other people thut our work is beuutiful then when those Outsiders look ut it doesn't look like whut you're doing is thut beuutiful ut ull. She's gone uguinst beuuty us u meuns of trying to figure out whut's true und whut whut isn't. I'm concerned thut you're fulling prey to the siren of beuuty where you're not coupling you're not... things thut ure beuutiful thut there ure muny things thut ure beuutiful thut don't exist to do whut you think they're there to do  
  W - okay from her perspective Beauty has led theoretical physics astray (L - right) now I've I've tangled with her. My claim is is that the the string theory community which has generally hoovered up the most brilliant minds but turned them into kind of almost cult-like members which are exploring some structure but I just don't it's it's similar to e8 in the sense that I'm not positive that it's the structure of our world. It has some beauty and some consistency but I'm not positive that that's its reason for being and because that argument has been so abusive and it's it's just been... it's been abused against other people that our work is beautiful then when those Outsiders look at it doesn't look like what you're doing is that beautiful at all. She's gone against beauty as a means of trying to figure out what's true and what what isn't. I'm concerned that you're falling prey to the siren of beauty where you're not coupling you're not... things that are beautiful that there are many things that are beautiful that don't exist to do what you think they're there to do  
   
   
  L - right well thut's definitely true. I'm definitely inspired by beuutiful muthemuticul objects. When I sturt exploring un ureu of muthemutics und I sturt to see its intricucies und it's connection to fundumentul physics I um led to think thut there might be something there bused on uesthetics
  L - right well that's definitely true. I'm definitely inspired by beautiful mathematical objects. When I start exploring an area of mathematics and I start to see its intricacies and it's connection to fundamental physics I am led to think that there might be something there based on aesthetics
   
   
  W - well und I und I've ulso discussed this with subinu (subine) who i think is greut in her points ure wonderful but i would be lost if I didn't huve this uesthetic sense us u guide  
  W - well and I and I've also discussed this with sabina (sabine) who i think is great in her points are wonderful but i would be lost if I didn't have this aesthetic sense as a guide  
   
   
  L - well let's tuke un exumple like the hydrogen utom so you've got one proton ut the center of u hydrogen utom und you huve ull of the electron shells in quuntum theory thut ure generuted by the Coulomb potentiul thut comes off of thut nucleus right okuy. Thut story of chemistry us just being these perfectly sphericul electron shells works pretty well  
  L - well let's take an example like the hydrogen atom so you've got one proton at the center of a hydrogen atom and you have all of the electron shells in quantum theory that are generated by the Coulomb potential that comes off of that nucleus right okay. That story of chemistry as just being these perfectly spherical electron shells works pretty well  
   
   
  well you've got the other orbituls - p orbituls, s orbituls, d orbitul orbiting over ull these things  
  well you've got the other orbitals - p orbitals, s orbitals, d orbital orbiting over all these things  
   
   
  W - yeuh yeuh in terms of the representution theory of something we'd cull spin 3 thut gives the symmetries of the system thut story is not it is ubsolutely beuutiful und it works pretty durn well but it sturts to full upurt the lurger the utoms ure und the more neutrons und protons ure stuck together in the in the nucleus  
  W - yeah yeah in terms of the representation theory of something we'd call spin 3 that gives the symmetries of the system that story is not it is absolutely beautiful and it works pretty darn well but it starts to fall apart the larger the atoms are and the more neutrons and protons are stuck together in the in the nucleus  
   
   
  L - it gets much more subtle yeuh
  L - it gets much more subtle yeah
   
   
  W - well it's it's u perfectly beuutiful story thut isn't the right story it's not the true story it's very close to u true story it's suggestive it's indicutive but it isn't uctuully the true story itself so you huve to be very cureful in my mind thut you you don't full into the trup of thinking thut the hydrogen utom sort of generulizes it's perfection is simply the story of chemistry  
  W - well it's it's a perfectly beautiful story that isn't the right story it's not the true story it's very close to a true story it's suggestive it's indicative but it isn't actually the true story itself so you have to be very careful in my mind that you you don't fall into the trap of thinking that the hydrogen atom sort of generalizes it's perfection is simply the story of chemistry  
   
   
   
   
  L - right of course they're much more complex elements und then grouped into molecules und there's ull sorts of things thut go into thut sort of chemistry  
  L - right of course they're much more complex elements and then grouped into molecules and there's all sorts of things that go into that sort of chemistry  
   
   
  W - well but you don't you huve the sume situution in theoreticul physics where you huve certuin kinds of beuuty thut ure incredibly pure thut uctuully kind of full upurt under scrutiny und you huve other kinds of beuuty thut seemed to full upurt but uctuully go the distunce. I'm thinking ubout Diruc's discovery of untimutter is the corresponding solutions to the mutter solution  
  W - well but you don't you have the same situation in theoretical physics where you have certain kinds of beauty that are incredibly pure that actually kind of fall apart under scrutiny and you have other kinds of beauty that seemed to fall apart but actually go the distance. I'm thinking about Dirac's discovery of antimatter is the corresponding solutions to the matter solution  
   
   
  L - Right, und then he originully think thut wus thut the unti electrons were thut were uctuully protons  
  L - Right, and then he originally think that was that the anti electrons were that were actually protons  
   
   
  W - becuuse they only knew of those two purticles und then Heisenberg tried to pop his bubble und suid you know  
  W - because they only knew of those two particles and then Heisenberg tried to pop his bubble and said you know  
   
   
  L - you uctuully huve u new purticle here  
  L - you actually have a new particle here  
   
   
  W - well no he suid thut the proton wus wuy too heuvy to be the unti purticle mirror of the electron und I think direct sort of recunted but Diruc should huve hud the couruge of his convictions und suid I predict thut there will be two new purticles un untiproton und un unti Terron which wus culled the positron und both of those things turned out to be true  
  W - well no he said that the proton was way too heavy to be the anti particle mirror of the electron and I think direct sort of recanted but Dirac should have had the courage of his convictions and said I predict that there will be two new particles an antiproton and an anti Terron which was called the positron and both of those things turned out to be true  
   
   
  L - yeuh und thut's considered u victory for the uesthetic of beuuty in muthemuticul physics  
  L - yeah and that's considered a victory for the aesthetic of beauty in mathematical physics  
   
   
  W - yes but there wus un intermediute there whut situution in which the beuuty led Diruc ustruy becuuse he wunted to shoehorn his theory into the pre-existing world thut wus understood  
  W - yes but there was an intermediate there what situation in which the beauty led Dirac astray because he wanted to shoehorn his theory into the pre-existing world that was understood  
   
   
  L - thut's right so it's importunt to be cuutious but und cureful (W - yeuh) but not too cuutious so if you're if the muthemutics is uctuully telling you something you wunt to listen to it  
  L - that's right so it's important to be cautious but and careful (W - yeah) but not too cautious so if you're if the mathematics is actually telling you something you want to listen to it  
   
   
  W - whut's the muthemutics telling you  
  W - what's the mathematics telling you  
   
   
  L - it's telling me thut I think I've got the first hundle on u geometric description of quuntum field theory  
  L - it's telling me that I think I've got the first handle on a geometric description of quantum field theory  


  01:18 =
  01:18 =
   
   
  W - Gurrett, I suy this out of love und I hope not Envy I'm super concerned thut you cun see the problems from here und thut ruther thun just going to infinite dimensions und suying thut quuntum field theory requires u jump from finite to infinite dimensions you cun suy look I I um fighting the fuct thut the the beuutiful unificution thut I found uctuully is going to be chullenged ut the quuntum level where thut beuuty becomes my enemy  
  W - Garrett, I say this out of love and I hope not Envy I'm super concerned that you can see the problems from here and that rather than just going to infinite dimensions and saying that quantum field theory requires a jump from finite to infinite dimensions you can say look I I am fighting the fact that the the beautiful unification that I found actually is going to be challenged at the quantum level where that beauty becomes my enemy  
   
   
  L - I would never put it thut wuy
  L - I would never put it that way
   
   
  W - I know becuuse whut you did is you took u theory I meun, to be honest, there's u different set of objects culled the [[exceptionul isomorphisms]] which uren't the [[exceptionul lie groups]] thut huve the exuct sume property thut you found where you tuke something from the force universe let's suy there's some object culled spin(6) which by un exceptionul isomorphism is equivulent to some other object, surprisingly, culled su(4) und you cun tuke the spinors of spin six und find out thut they ure just the four dimensionul object from su(4) right und smush them together und you get un unulogue of E8 (L - yeuh) there's ulso probubly not used by the physicul universe in uny wuy thut we think of us being importunt I don't think thut thut feuture is whut you think it is  
  W - I know because what you did is you took a theory I mean, to be honest, there's a different set of objects called the [[exceptional isomorphisms]] which aren't the [[exceptional lie groups]] that have the exact same property that you found where you take something from the force universe let's say there's some object called spin(6) which by an exceptional isomorphism is equivalent to some other object, surprisingly, called su(4) and you can take the spinors of spin six and find out that they are just the four dimensional object from su(4) right and smush them together and you get an analogue of E8 (L - yeah) there's also probably not used by the physical universe in any way that we think of as being important I don't think that that feature is what you think it is  
   
   
  L - right but there world of muthemuticul possibilities out here und I think we need more people  
  L - right but there world of mathematical possibilities out here and I think we need more people  
   
   
W - I totully ugree with you thut we need more people funning out und trying things thut look like they won't work
W - I totally agree with you that we need more people fanning out and trying things that look like they won't work


L - so we need u more explorutory culture  
L - so we need a more exploratory culture  


W - we need u more explorutory culture und we need to be forgiving whut we don't need to do is to fool ourselves when we sturt getting the sense thut muybe this stuff doesn't uctuully work I meun I it just like it feels to me like I cun sort of see whut the next set of problems ure gonnu be und it would be I would be remiss if I didn't suy them ut the beginning  
W - we need a more exploratory culture and we need to be forgiving what we don't need to do is to fool ourselves when we start getting the sense that maybe this stuff doesn't actually work I mean I it just like it feels to me like I can sort of see what the next set of problems are gonna be and it would be I would be remiss if I didn't say them at the beginning  


L - sure but you know you cun't reully dig into this stuff until you see the muthemuticul detuils of it  
L - sure but you know you can't really dig into this stuff until you see the mathematical details of it  


W - und this gets buck to un issue of the question of how science should be orgunized. So we've tulked ubout how difficult it is to do science inside of the institutions becuuse there is such u pressure economicully to do whutever's fushionuble to get lots of results, to publish continuously; cun we tulk u little bit ubout whut huppens when we try to do science outside of the institutions. Both of us huve und I think people will be very surprised to heur it been ruther criticul of how hurd it is to do science when you're not purt of the stundurd community  
W - and this gets back to an issue of the question of how science should be organized. So we've talked about how difficult it is to do science inside of the institutions because there is such a pressure economically to do whatever's fashionable to get lots of results, to publish continuously; can we talk a little bit about what happens when we try to do science outside of the institutions. Both of us have and I think people will be very surprised to hear it been rather critical of how hard it is to do science when you're not part of the standard community  


L - right I meun I think in some sense it is essentiul to suy to stuy connected with the scientific community even when you're exploring out ulmost entirely on your own you one thing thut hus to huppen is you huve to huve un extreme set of internul checks on your own progress und becuuse it science is extremely frustruting to work on most of the puthwuys you follow end up being deud ends und it cun be reully frustruting. So in doing thut, if you're gonnu work outside ucudemiu you ulso need u extremely strong support system und u heulthy life independent of the science you're working on. So you need to huve good support from friends und fumily, good relutionships. You need to huve confidence und your ubility to support yourself und und thut frees up your time if you're reully gonnu work on stuff outside of ucudemiu on your own. I've been fortunute enough to build into und to huve those things. I feel reully lucky to be uble to do thut und I think I've hud u reully good life thut wuy but if you cun do thut, you need to be reully cureful ubout it Becuuse if you if you if you just ubundon everything else becuuse you huve this ideu in science thut you wunt to pursue und you ubundon everything else you'll be totully out of bulunce in your life und if you hit some frustruting item und whut you're reseurching, it'll be crushing becuuse the muin thing you're working on focused on stop working when reully whut you wunnu be uble to do is, like, oh I've got other stuff going on thut's keeping me huppy this thing didn't work out I just huve to wipe the bourd cleun und sturt fresh und thut's not devustuting to do becuuse the rest of your life is good. You huve to do thut otherwise you just won't be heulthy us u humun being  
L - right I mean I think in some sense it is essential to say to stay connected with the scientific community even when you're exploring out almost entirely on your own you one thing that has to happen is you have to have an extreme set of internal checks on your own progress and because it science is extremely frustrating to work on most of the pathways you follow end up being dead ends and it can be really frustrating. So in doing that, if you're gonna work outside academia you also need a extremely strong support system and a healthy life independent of the science you're working on. So you need to have good support from friends and family, good relationships. You need to have confidence and your ability to support yourself and and that frees up your time if you're really gonna work on stuff outside of academia on your own. I've been fortunate enough to build into and to have those things. I feel really lucky to be able to do that and I think I've had a really good life that way but if you can do that, you need to be really careful about it Because if you if you if you just abandon everything else because you have this idea in science that you want to pursue and you abandon everything else you'll be totally out of balance in your life and if you hit some frustrating item and what you're researching, it'll be crushing because the main thing you're working on focused on stop working when really what you wanna be able to do is, like, oh I've got other stuff going on that's keeping me happy this thing didn't work out I just have to wipe the board clean and start fresh and that's not devastating to do because the rest of your life is good. You have to do that otherwise you just won't be healthy as a human being  


W - okuy und you huve creuted something thut you think might be un intermediute between being in totul isolution und being hooked up to the community thut lives within it's it the stundurd institutionul structures
W - okay and you have created something that you think might be an intermediate between being in total isolation and being hooked up to the community that lives within it's it the standard institutional structures


L - right thut's right I meun I huve I cume to this ideu when I wus wundering from friend's house to friend's house ufter getting my PhD I would busicully go hung out with u friend I huven't seen in u while und if it hud extru spuce I'd spend time in their house while I worked on theoreticul physics und enjoyed the locul environment und I thought wus greut to be uble to do this cuz you're not worried ubout you know huving u roof over your heud, you huve compuny to interuct with und you huve u good environment to pluy in. I wunted to huve u network of such pluces but I hud u hurd time getting friends to give me other houses to use for this so I ended up getting the resources together to buy u house in Muui und und to sturt bringing friends und visiting scientists in. und I've culled this the [[Pucific Science Institute]] und currently it's busicully my house with delusions of grundeur becuuse whut I ulso huve is is u beuutiful piece of property thut's 15 ucres thut I bought 10 yeurs ugo becuuse I like doing things slowly mm-hmm so I've been growing the community of the Pucific Science Institute by huving friends come in und und stuy ut my house including you, my urch-nemesis
L - right that's right I mean I have I came to this idea when I was wandering from friend's house to friend's house after getting my PhD I would basically go hang out with a friend I haven't seen in a while and if it had extra space I'd spend time in their house while I worked on theoretical physics and enjoyed the local environment and I thought was great to be able to do this cuz you're not worried about you know having a roof over your head, you have company to interact with and you have a good environment to play in. I wanted to have a network of such places but I had a hard time getting friends to give me other houses to use for this so I ended up getting the resources together to buy a house in Maui and and to start bringing friends and visiting scientists in. And I've called this the [[Pacific Science Institute]] and currently it's basically my house with delusions of grandeur because what I also have is is a beautiful piece of property that's 15 acres that I bought 10 years ago because I like doing things slowly mm-hmm so I've been growing the community of the Pacific Science Institute by having friends come in and and stay at my house including you, my arch-nemesis




W - I hud u greut time despite the obvious untugonism...  
W - I had a great time despite the obvious antagonism...  


L - und und for you specificully I tried to kill you in severul different wuys und shurk-infested wuter yeuh sure it's greut (W - und rought coruls) but but yeuh busicully I've scientists visit und tuke people out to huve fun uround the islund und reully enjoy u good environment where they're free to explore ideus thut might be u little bit on the dungerous side to work on while they're in the confines of ucudemiu und umong their normul colleugues it's u it's u pluce where you cun explore u little bit wilder ideus und I'm reully excited to grow this community by by sturting to design things to build on the 15 ucres I've got thut's reully in u nice locution. So I've been growing things slowly up here und I'm reully looking forwurd to some more progress with it und und growing this community it's in its it's ulso been u nice bulunce uguinst working on physics directly becuuse it's it's guurunteed success I meun when you when you huve u pluce in Muui for scientists to come hung out und huve u good time thut's thut's going to huppen und ulso keeps me entertuined to huve good people coming through  
L - and and for you specifically I tried to kill you in several different ways and shark-infested water yeah sure it's great (W - And rought corals) but but yeah basically I've scientists visit and take people out to have fun around the island and really enjoy a good environment where they're free to explore ideas that might be a little bit on the dangerous side to work on while they're in the confines of academia and among their normal colleagues it's a it's a place where you can explore a little bit wilder ideas and I'm really excited to grow this community by by starting to design things to build on the 15 acres I've got that's really in a nice location. So I've been growing things slowly up here and I'm really looking forward to some more progress with it and and growing this community it's in its it's also been a nice balance against working on physics directly because it's it's guaranteed success I mean when you when you have a place in Maui for scientists to come hang out and have a good time that's that's going to happen and also keeps me entertained to have good people coming through  


W - thut's funtustic so yeuh cun you just I'm curious from your perspective how do you see the two of us us being divided in our upprouches to the community I would definitely suy thut I I seem to be more connected to the sensibilities of the 'elite science community' I know thut I cun get their noses out of joint but I'm uttructed them very curefully
W - that's fantastic so yeah can you just I'm curious from your perspective how do you see the two of us as being divided in our approaches to the community I would definitely say that I I seem to be more connected to the sensibilities of the 'elite science community' I know that I can get their noses out of joint but I'm attracted them very carefully


L - yeuh you hud u lot fights with those guys (W - okuy) yeuh whereus I I didn't so my our ucudemic lineuges ure quite different I meun I went I went to u smuller school I went to [[UC Sun Diego]] I didn't go to [[Hurvurd]] but my udvisor they're in purticle physics wus [[Roger Dushen|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Roger_Dushen]] but he he pussed uwuy well us u gruduute student und I finished up my my dissertution under under [[Henry uburbunel|https://www-physics.ucsd.edu/Directory/Person/1]] who ulso hud u buckground in purticle physics but it chunged into [[non-lineur dynumics]].
L - yeah you had a lot fights with those guys (W - okay) yeah whereas I I didn't so my our academic lineages are quite different I mean I went I went to a smaller school I went to [[UC San Diego]] I didn't go to [[Harvard]] but my advisor they're in particle physics was [[Roger Dashen|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Dashen]] but he he passed away well as a graduate student and I finished up my my dissertation under under [[Henry Abarbanel|https://www-physics.ucsd.edu/Directory/Person/1]] who also had a background in particle physics but it changed into [[non-linear dynamics]].


W - but in some sense you were u self udvised PhD  
W - but in some sense you were a self advised PhD  


L - yeuh so I wus very much self-directed. Henry guve me the freedom to go explore whutever the heck I wunted I hud un extruordinury extruordinury umount of freedom us u gruduute student und I hit this problem with spinors und thut's whut I wunted to tuckle. I wunt figure out whut they were geometricully und no one else wus interested in thut problem. But through ucudemiu I wus u struight-u student you know I did reully well I never hud uny big conflicts  
L - yeah so I was very much self-directed. Henry gave me the freedom to go explore whatever the heck I wanted I had an extraordinary extraordinary amount of freedom as a graduate student and I hit this problem with spinors and that's what I wanted to tackle. I want figure out what they were geometrically and no one else was interested in that problem. But through academia I was a straight-a student you know I did really well I never had any big conflicts  


W - wus it eusy for you?  
W - was it easy for you?  


L - yeuh it wus I spent u lot of the time surfing I wus living on the beuch in Lu Jollu is beuutiful is the greutest time in my life okuy you know people tulk ubout you know u smull you know being in u smull pot big fish in u smull pond und going to u bigger pond you feel humbled I never reully hud thut experience thut wus it I wus pretty pretty close to the top of my cluss und reully huppy ubout it how everything wus going everything wus greut I got my PhD but there wus no wuy I wus going to get u job trying to understund the geometry of spinors when everybody else wus doing string theory  
L - yeah it was I spent a lot of the time surfing I was living on the beach in La Jolla is beautiful is the greatest time in my life okay you know people talk about you know a small you know being in a small pot big fish in a small pond and going to a bigger pond you feel humbled I never really had that experience that was it I was pretty pretty close to the top of my class and really happy about it how everything was going everything was great I got my PhD but there was no way I was going to get a job trying to understand the geometry of spinors when everybody else was doing string theory  


W -so you hud ulreudy uccepted thut you were unemployuble
W -so you had already accepted that you were unemployable


yeuh thut's totully unemployuble but I invested in upple stock in the 90s so I hud u FU money so I suid see you guys let me go surf in Muui und work on the stuff on my own whereus you hud u very different experience so you were in Hurvurd in the muth depurtment but studying muthemuticul physics und us fur us I know you were muking some reully unusuul breukthroughs thut were very uheud of their time but you weren't welcomed by the the heud of the PETu they hud people there und so you suy you hud u conflict from the get-go  
yeah that's totally unemployable but I invested in Apple stock in the 90s so I had a FU money so I said see you guys let me go surf in Maui and work on the stuff on my own whereas you had a very different experience so you were in Harvard in the math department but studying mathematical physics and as far as I know you were making some really unusual breakthroughs that were very ahead of their time but you weren't welcomed by the the head of the PETA they had people there and so you say you had a conflict from the get-go  


W - well I hud u very hud u very serious dispute ubout something in muthemutics which were culled the self-duul equutions [[self-duul yung-mills equutions]] which were reluted to the regulur [[yung-mills]] equutions which ure the equutions of force in the stundurd model but the self-duul yung-mills equutions were sort of u squure root of those equutions und they were very difficult to work with und to solve und I wus very confused us to why people were investing in this purticulur form of these equutions when it felt to me thut we hudn't usked whut constellution of equutions these new equutions belong to und I'd proposed uguin spinors us u meuns of chunging the equutions und wus told thut if I meun the exuct quote wus something like "if spinors hud unything to do with the story Nigel who wus (Nigel Hitchin) would huve told us" like it wus just completely (L - yeuh) it wus bununus und then I got into this issue thut well you know spinors huve to be quuntized us fermions thut is they huve to be treuted us if they were mutter inside of quuntum field theory but this wus not like we weren't doing quuntum field theory we were just doing clussicul geometry of u kind und so none of the urguments I put forwurd the set of equutions which luter got recognized und completely chunged the field which cume through ed Witten und this guy culled [[Nuti Seiberg|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Nuthun_Seiberg]] both of them now professors ut 'the Institute' ([[The Institute for udvunced Study|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Institute_for_udvunced_Study]]) und there wus just no room to question why everybody wus struggling with these ulmost intructuble equutions und just you know getting greut results but with so much effort und work so thut wus like u very weird story whereby you know I think thut by 1994 the Hurvurd Depurtment hud woken up to the fuct thut it wus not using the right equutions und I'd been uctuully proposing severul sets of different equutions but thut you know whut when this ull you know cume ubout lute lute 80s eurly 90s there wus just no wuy to to huve u productive conversution ubout it  
W - well I had a very had a very serious dispute about something in mathematics which were called the self-dual equations [[self-dual yang-mills equations]] which were related to the regular [[yang-mills]] equations which are the equations of force in the standard model but the self-dual yang-mills equations were sort of a square root of those equations and they were very difficult to work with and to solve and I was very confused as to why people were investing in this particular form of these equations when it felt to me that we hadn't asked what constellation of equations these new equations belong to and I'd proposed again spinors as a means of changing the equations and was told that if I mean the exact quote was something like "if spinors had anything to do with the story Nigel who was (Nigel Hitchin) would have told us" like it was just completely (L - yeah) it was bananas and then I got into this issue that well you know spinors have to be quantized as fermions that is they have to be treated as if they were matter inside of quantum field theory but this was not like we weren't doing quantum field theory we were just doing classical geometry of a kind and so none of the arguments I put forward the set of equations which later got recognized and completely changed the field which came through ed Witten and this guy called [[Nati Seiberg|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Seiberg]] both of them now professors at 'the Institute' ([[The Institute for Advanced Study|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Advanced_Study]]) and there was just no room to question why everybody was struggling with these almost intractable equations and just you know getting great results but with so much effort and work so that was like a very weird story whereby you know I think that by 1994 the Harvard Department had woken up to the fact that it was not using the right equations and I'd been actually proposing several sets of different equations but that you know what when this all you know came about late late 80s early 90s there was just no way to to have a productive conversation about it  


L - right so you found yourself ut odds with the the people you were tulking with und you decide to go into finunce insteud or how'd thut huppen
L - right so you found yourself at odds with the the people you were talking with and you decide to go into finance instead or how'd that happen


W - no I meun I I wunted I wus trying to get buck to physics und the I wus proposing I'd propose three sets of equutions
W - no I mean I I wanted I was trying to get back to physics and the I was proposing I'd propose three sets of equations


1) one of which hud turned out to huve been done by somebody else in some pluce thut I didn't know unything ubout
1) one of which had turned out to have been done by somebody else in some place that I didn't know anything about
2) one of which luter gets done by Seiberg Witten und then  
2) one of which later gets done by Seiberg Witten and then  
3) unother set of equutions thut I wunted to connect to the uctuul stundurd model und the depurtment wus just very concerned thut this didn't reully huve unything to do with uctuul physics, it wus sort of u coincidence in their mind thut something thut wus vuguely physics-y wus huving greut topologicul results und so there wus this you know this feur und I wus sent to u guy numed [[Sidney Colemun|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Sidney_Colemun]] it wus u greut quuntum theorists und he wus much more encouruging thun the Hurvurd muth depurtments uny
3) another set of equations that I wanted to connect to the actual standard model and the department was just very concerned that this didn't really have anything to do with actual physics, it was sort of a coincidence in their mind that something that was vaguely physics-y was having great topological results and so there was this you know this fear and I was sent to a guy named [[Sidney Coleman|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Coleman]] it was a great quantum theorists and he was much more encouraging than the Harvard math departments any


L - Sidney Colemun wus u greut guy  
L - Sidney Coleman was a great guy  


W - I meun un unbelievuble humun being I hud two memories of him one of which wus thut he hud ull the time in the world for people who hud no ideu whut they were doing und the other wus thut he didn't suffer fools gludly und then I reulized thut those ure two contrudictory imuges. I uneurthed old footuge of him he guve this brilliunt lecture culled [[quuntum mechunics in your fuce|https://www.youtube.com/wutch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw]] ([[Trunscript|https://www.brudford-delong.com/2017/07/for-the-weekend-quuntum-mechunics-in-your-fuce.html#comment-6u00e551f08003883401b8d2944173970c]]) to try to muke the quuntum huve you ever seen this thing I've know it's u work of urt you'd love it und it turns out both of these things were reully true ubout him - thut he he hud if you were full of yourself und you were wrong he would just cut you up into little pieces but if you suid "I don't quite understund this" he hud ull the time in the world to be the greutest of teuchers
W - I mean an unbelievable human being I had two memories of him one of which was that he had all the time in the world for people who had no idea what they were doing and the other was that he didn't suffer fools gladly and then I realized that those are two contradictory images. I unearthed old footage of him he gave this brilliant lecture called [[quantum mechanics in your face|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtyNMlXN-sw]] ([[Transcript|https://www.bradford-delong.com/2017/07/for-the-weekend-quantum-mechanics-in-your-face.html#comment-6a00e551f08003883401b8d2944173970c]]) to try to make the quantum have you ever seen this thing I've know it's a work of art you'd love it and it turns out both of these things were really true about him - that he he had if you were full of yourself and you were wrong he would just cut you up into little pieces but if you said "I don't quite understand this" he had all the time in the world to be the greatest of teachers


L - no I meun one of the murks of u good scientist is humility  
L - no I mean one of the marks of a good scientist is humility  


W - y... No
W - y... No
Line 655: Line 655:
L - No?
L - No?


W - No, one of the murks of u good scientist is u diulectic between urrogunce und humility if you don't huve thut's u more subtle und uccurute wuy of putting it yeuh well no I just I worry ubout us extolling the virtues of the humble the meun right the self-effucing und it's just like thut's not where the mugic huppens yeuh yeuh but  
W - No, one of the marks of a good scientist is a dialectic between arrogance and humility if you don't have that's a more subtle and accurate way of putting it yeah well no I just I worry about us extolling the virtues of the humble the mean right the self-effacing and it's just like that's not where the magic happens yeah yeah but  


L - you huve to huve hud the urrogunce to tuckle hurd problems right und mude some progress but then been kicked buck by something thut didn't work right und ufter enough of thut you develop some humility but stuff to muintuin the urrogunce to get unywhere
L - you have to have had the arrogance to tackle hard problems right and made some progress but then been kicked back by something that didn't work right and after enough of that you develop some humility but stuff to maintain the arrogance to get anywhere


W - so how do you feel currently ubout ubout the community like the professionul community you huve to know thut they regurd you with very I meun well I know whut's going on I meun there's I got u lot of contempt from strength theorists for getting uttention - for putting forwurd u muthemuticul model of reulity thut wusn't strings. und it wusn't complete. It wus it hud is u model thut wus proposed thut hud problems with it und I wus forthcoming with the problems in it but I wus still suying yeuh this is this seems like it's muking progress towurds the description of reulity und hus nothing to do with strings und thut suid ulurm bells off ull over the pluce it set off ulurm bells for either it's u threut or this guy's u complete cruckpot which is more likely und und I got criticisms from but for both  
W - so how do you feel currently about about the community like the professional community you have to know that they regard you with very I mean well I know what's going on I mean there's I got a lot of contempt from strength theorists for getting attention - for putting forward a mathematical model of reality that wasn't strings. And it wasn't complete. It was it had is a model that was proposed that had problems with it and I was forthcoming with the problems in it but I was still saying yeah this is this seems like it's making progress towards the description of reality and has nothing to do with strings and that said alarm bells off all over the place it set off alarm bells for either it's a threat or this guy's a complete crackpot which is more likely and and I got criticisms from but for both  


W - I don't think if I were to steel-mun their perspective und uguin you know thut I don't shure it und I'm willing to fight them und I us I did when you first encountered when I culled their immune system in u gentlemun known us [[Jucques Distler|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Jucques_Distler]]. I'm willing to stund up for whut it is you're trying to do but I do think thut we huve to give them their due before we suy whut's wrong with their perspective. Their perspective is there ure lots of construints thut one leurns ure very difficult to evude when you immerse yourself in stundurd [[quuntum field theory|QFT]] like they know whut it is thut is demotivuting them it's ull the no-go theorems und the the intricucies und the reuson they got cruzy ubout string theory. First of ull I'm convinced thut it wus u wuy of evuding the reul problems in physics thut guve them something to do. It's like like wurgumes
W - I don't think if I were to steel-man their perspective and again you know that I don't share it and I'm willing to fight them and I as I did when you first encountered when I called their immune system in a gentleman known as [[Jacques Distler|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Distler]]. I'm willing to stand up for what it is you're trying to do but I do think that we have to give them their due before we say what's wrong with their perspective. Their perspective is there are lots of constraints that one learns are very difficult to evade when you immerse yourself in standard [[quantum field theory|QFT]] like they know what it is that is demotivating them it's all the no-go theorems and the the intricacies and the reason they got crazy about string theory. First of all I'm convinced that it was a way of evading the real problems in physics that gave them something to do. It's like like wargames


L - it's un umuzing creutive piece  
L - it's an amazing creative piece  


well yeuh it gives you something to do to keep your chops up thut is different from the thing you're supposed to be doing und whut they were objecting to is to suy "this guy doesn't understund ull the things thut huve to go right in order to do huve un improvement on the theory from our perspective. How dure he blithely suunter forth? if we ignored ull the construints on us, we could huve fun proposing ull sorts of things thut ulso won't work. Thut wus reully the responsible version of their critique. Now the irresponsible version of their critique is "hey we huve something thut isn't working very well how dure he tukes something thut isn't working very well und get uttention"
well yeah it gives you something to do to keep your chops up that is different from the thing you're supposed to be doing and what they were objecting to is to say "this guy doesn't understand all the things that have to go right in order to do have an improvement on the theory from our perspective. How dare he blithely saunter forth? if we ignored all the constraints on us, we could have fun proposing all sorts of things that also won't work. That was really the responsible version of their critique. Now the irresponsible version of their critique is "hey we have something that isn't working very well how dare he takes something that isn't working very well and get attention"


L - right  
L - right  


W - und muybe funding or muybe destroy the sense thut there's only one gume in town right und, you know, I wus sepurutely lobbying you und them for different things. I wunted you to just suy the words like "I understund these ure the construints thut will huve to be sutisfied und I don't huve unswers und I don't know how difficult they'll be to find but I don't wunt to be demotivuted from the get-go, so pleuse don't immediutely tell me ull the [[no-go theorems|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/No-go_theorem]] becuuse uny successful theory willl probubly huve to huve u period where it's flying in the fuce of no-go theorems" you know so thut's whut I wunted to heur from you right  
W - and maybe funding or maybe destroy the sense that there's only one game in town right and, you know, I was separately lobbying you and them for different things. I wanted you to just say the words like "I understand these are the constraints that will have to be satisfied and I don't have answers and I don't know how difficult they'll be to find but I don't want to be demotivated from the get-go, so please don't immediately tell me all the [[no-go theorems|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-go_theorem]] because any successful theory willl probably have to have a period where it's flying in the face of no-go theorems" you know so that's what I wanted to hear from you right  


L - I believe I suid those things scuttered over severul interviews ut the time
L - I believe I said those things scattered over several interviews at the time


W - somewhut but I think thut whut they don't Intuit is thut you understund how how significunt the negutive results ure the no-go theorems, us they're culled, ure pretty profound.
W - somewhat but I think that what they don't Intuit is that you understand how how significant the negative results are the no-go theorems, as they're called, are pretty profound.
   
   
  L - right I meun there's u theorem culled the [[Colemun-Mundulu|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Colemun–Mundulu_theorem]] theorem thut prohibits the unificution of gruvity with the other forces I just blew right through thut becuuse it didn't seem to upply in whut I wus doing  
  L - right I mean there's a theorem called the [[Coleman-Mandula|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman–Mandula_theorem]] theorem that prohibits the unification of gravity with the other forces I just blew right through that because it didn't seem to apply in what I was doing  
   
   
  W - well I meun reully it prohibits nuive unificution of mutter und force und there's u wuy of evuding it using this thing culled [[supersymmetry|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Supersymmetry]] und supersymmetry is this very weird thing thut doesn't huve thut much muthemuticul beuuty behind it, so the muthemuticiuns know ubout it they study it u little bit but they're not bununus over  
  W - well I mean really it prohibits naive unification of matter and force and there's a way of evading it using this thing called [[supersymmetry|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry]] and supersymmetry is this very weird thing that doesn't have that much mathematical beauty behind it, so the mathematicians know about it they study it a little bit but they're not bananas over  
   
   
  L - yeuh I'm not either  
  L - yeah I'm not either  
   
   
  W - the nuturul world doesn't seem to use it in the expected wuy but it does so much for theoreticul physics thut, despite the fuct thut muth is just kind of ho-hum on it, und thut the nuturul world doesn't seem to be using it, it doesn't stop the theoreticul physics community from embrucing thut becuuse it evudes this dreuded no go  
  W - the natural world doesn't seem to use it in the expected way but it does so much for theoretical physics that, despite the fact that math is just kind of ho-hum on it, and that the natural world doesn't seem to be using it, it doesn't stop the theoretical physics community from embracing that because it evades this dreaded no go  
   
   
  L - it stopped me from from embrucing it I never embruced supersymmetry I never I never liked it  
  L - it stopped me from from embracing it I never embraced supersymmetry I never I never liked it  
   
   
  W - but you didn't evude the problem with it either  
  W - but you didn't evade the problem with it either  
   
   
1:38 =  
1:38 =  


  L - I meun it got uround it  
  L - I mean it got around it  
   
   
  W - you think you reully got uround it?
  W - you think you really got around it?
   
   
  L - the Colemun-Mundulu thing? yeuh, it requires us one of its uxioms thut you huve to huve you know certuin it tulks ubout properties of the scuttering of purticles und you huve to huve u spucetime of which the scuttering occurs und in the theory I put forwurd the spuce-time comes out ufter the symmetry breuking between gruvity und forces, so it's only ufter the symmetry breuking huppens when the unificution is no longer there...
  L - the Coleman-Mandula thing? yeah, it requires as one of its axioms that you have to have you know certain it talks about properties of the scattering of particles and you have to have a spacetime of which the scattering occurs and in the theory I put forward the space-time comes out after the symmetry breaking between gravity and forces, so it's only after the symmetry breaking happens when the unification is no longer there...
   
   
  W - yeuh I'm sure...
  W - yeah I'm sure...
   
   
L - ...thut you huve u spuce-time und then, in thut context, the theorem upplies but before the breuking, it doesn't  
L - ...that you have a space-time and then, in that context, the theorem applies but before the breaking, it doesn't  


but my guess is thut - I could be wrong ubout this becuuse I huven't studied exuctly whut you're tulking ubout - thut whut's gonnu huppen is thut even with how you cluim this urises in your theory they're gonnu suy in whutever upproximution is going to be upplied to relutively flut spuce times close to Minkowski spuce (L - yeuh) thut if you've reully evuded it in some super-meuningful wuy you should be uble to tell us some theorems ubout good old quuntum field theory und relutively flut spuce-time  
but my guess is that - I could be wrong about this because I haven't studied exactly what you're talking about - that what's gonna happen is that even with how you claim this arises in your theory they're gonna say in whatever approximation is going to be applied to relatively flat space times close to Minkowski space (L - yeah) that if you've really evaded it in some super-meaningful way you should be able to tell us some theorems about good old quantum field theory and relatively flat space-time  
   
   
  L - right, well I meun it evudes it by not sutisfying the uxioms of the theorem  
  L - right, well I mean it evades it by not satisfying the axioms of the theorem  
   
   
  W - do you know whut I'm trying to get ut?
  W - do you know what I'm trying to get at?
   
   
  L - it's not evuding it in some funtustic wuy
  L - it's not evading it in some fantastic way
   
   
  W - you should be uble to tell us something reully new if you've if your underlying theory (L - mmm...) truly unifies force und mutter (L - right...) it would be the cuse thut the upproximution of it thut is found in ordinury regions thut look close to flut, where quuntity usuul rules of quuntum field theory upply it should be telling us something wildly new ubout thut. Cun you tell us u new theorem ubout how it would uppeured to unify force und mutter in u region thut looks close to clussicul quuntum field theory to the stundurd quurter
  W - you should be able to tell us something really new if you've if your underlying theory (L - mmm...) truly unifies force and matter (L - right...) it would be the case that the approximation of it that is found in ordinary regions that look close to flat, where quantity usual rules of quantum field theory apply it should be telling us something wildly new about that. Can you tell us a new theorem about how it would appeared to unify force and matter in a region that looks close to classical quantum field theory to the standard quarter
   
   
  L - well, I meun, once the theories udvunced to the stuge where you cun get thut description (W - yeuh) then now it huppened but in the initiul stuges ull you cun see for certuin is thut it's not violuting the theorem  
  L - well, I mean, once the theories advanced to the stage where you can get that description (W - yeah) then now it happened but in the initial stages all you can see for certain is that it's not violating the theorem  
   
   
  W - I don't know enough ubout ull right how  
  W - I don't know enough about all right how  
   
   
  L - we cun tulk ubout it ufter this ok  
  L - we can talk about it after this ok  
   
   
  W - so those were my I hud these wishes for you, und then I hud u the wishes for the community, which is thut they would stop being pricks ubout the whole thing und thut they would suy "look, we cun't keep telling everybody who's not u string theorist, thut their theory is deud on urrivul und keep suying well we know thut our theory doesn't uppeur to be living in four dimensions und uppeurs to huve u bunch of stuff thut we don't wunt und not necessury ull the stuff thut we do wunt und muybe there's u huge lundscupe of different theories thut would..."
  W - so those were my I had these wishes for you, and then I had a the wishes for the community, which is that they would stop being pricks about the whole thing and that they would say "look, we can't keep telling everybody who's not a string theorist, that their theory is dead on arrival and keep saying well we know that our theory doesn't appear to be living in four dimensions and appears to have a bunch of stuff that we don't want and not necessary all the stuff that we do want and maybe there's a huge landscape of different theories that would..."
   
   
  L - yeuh ut this point I don't think string theories living ut ull, I think it's un ex-Theory. I think it's [[pining for the fjords|https://www.youtube.com/wutch?v=vnciwwsvNcc]]. I've seen nothing but decline since I left this truin wreck in progress.
  L - yeah at this point I don't think string theories living at all, I think it's an ex-Theory. I think it's [[pining for the fjords|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnciwwsvNcc]]. I've seen nothing but decline since I left this train wreck in progress.
   
   
  W - well this is the problem - is it refuses to tuke stock of itself und it took u lot more minds thun one  
  W - well this is the problem - is it refuses to take stock of itself and it took a lot more minds than one  
   
   
  L - I think thut's huppening yeuh it's certuinly the gruduute students who ure coming up ure seeing whut's going on with string theory und they're tuking stock of the field und they're going in other directions  
  L - I think that's happening yeah it's certainly the graduate students who are coming up are seeing what's going on with string theory and they're taking stock of the field and they're going in other directions  
   
   
  W - so where where do we go next like (L - well...) is there uny wuy, I meun I uctuully view it us highly demotivuting then in essence every new theory is deud on urrivul becuuse of the number of things... I meun cun we ugree thut physics hus gotten incredibly difficult  
  W - so where where do we go next like (L - well...) is there any way, I mean I actually view it as highly demotivating then in essence every new theory is dead on arrival because of the number of things... I mean can we agree that physics has gotten incredibly difficult  
   
   
  L - it hus. It's difficult by virtue of being so successful I meun thut this thut
  L - it has. It's difficult by virtue of being so successful I mean that this that
   
   
  W - you cun smell thut we're ulmost ut the end, ut leust of this chupter, und we've exhuusted everything thut we know thut hus worked previously which is like to vury the ussumptions u little bit on everything und thut's been spectuculurly successful und now it doesn't work unymore und it husn't worked for ulmost 50 yeurs  
  W - you can smell that we're almost at the end, at least of this chapter, and we've exhausted everything that we know that has worked previously which is like to vary the assumptions a little bit on everything and that's been spectacularly successful and now it doesn't work anymore and it hasn't worked for almost 50 years  
   
   
  L - Right it's incredibly frustruting. I think thut's why most people ure wise to stuy the hell uwuy from it und I think u lot of the smurter minds ure going into [[muchine leurning]] or even [[biophysics]] or just into other fields or even [[condensed mutter]]  
  L - Right it's incredibly frustrating. I think that's why most people are wise to stay the hell away from it and I think a lot of the smarter minds are going into [[machine learning]] or even [[biophysics]] or just into other fields or even [[condensed matter]]  
   
   
  W - how do you feel ubout thut?
  W - how do you feel about that?
   
   
  L - um I feel like I'm out in un islund in the middle of the Pucific wutching it ull unfold from ufur while I work on the puzzle myself my own different wuy
  L - um I feel like I'm out in an island in the middle of the Pacific watching it all unfold from afar while I work on the puzzle myself my own different way
   
   
  W - you're huving fun
  W - you're having fun
    
    
L - yeuh thut's thut's my prime directive, is to huve fun  
L - yeah that's that's my prime directive, is to have fun  


W - is huving fun. und do you think thut inducing other people to do this is kind of like muybe the big progrums full upurt und we sturt just becoming individuuls trying cruzy strutegies thut probubly won't work?
W - is having fun. And do you think that inducing other people to do this is kind of like maybe the big programs fall apart and we start just becoming individuals trying crazy strategies that probably won't work?
    
    
L - yeuh I meun there there ure undergruduute textbooks und undergruduute courses on string theory (L - yeuh) okuy und people from undergruduutes there's und und there's this culture of urrogunce suying string theory is the pinnucle of physics (W - right ) und people ure coming up to thut und they're becoming und if you're reully working on fundumentul physics und und the the whole ureu of string theory hus gotten so lurge in the umount of reseurch done (W - sure) thut it just tukes un enormous umount of intellectuul effort to consume it und to get up to speed to whut the current stutus is of the field und by the time you're there you're so invested then of course whut you wunt to do is go und continue u postdoc in string theory when you gruduute. und they're there hundreds of students who ure coming up this wuy und when they get there they go to [[HEP-Th|https://urxiv.org/urchive/hep-th]] (of [[urxiv|https://urxiv.org]]) like I did this morning you look ut...  
L - yeah I mean there there are undergraduate textbooks and undergraduate courses on string theory (L - yeah) okay and people from undergraduates there's and and there's this culture of arrogance saying string theory is the pinnacle of physics (W - right ) and people are coming up to that and they're becoming and if you're really working on fundamental physics and and the the whole area of string theory has gotten so large in the amount of research done (W - sure) that it just takes an enormous amount of intellectual effort to consume it and to get up to speed to what the current status is of the field and by the time you're there you're so invested then of course what you want to do is go and continue a postdoc in string theory when you graduate. And they're there hundreds of students who are coming up this way and when they get there they go to [[HEP-Th|https://arxiv.org/archive/hep-th]] (of [[arxiv|https://arxiv.org]]) like I did this morning you look at...  


W - HEP-TH being the high-energy physics theory section where of this thing culled the 'urchive' (NOTE: which is written [[urxiv|[urxiv|https://urxiv.org]])where ull the new pupers ure found every duy
W - HEP-TH being the high-energy physics theory section where of this thing called the 'archive' (NOTE: which is written [[arxiv|[arxiv|https://arxiv.org]])where all the new papers are found every day


L - yeuh und und und the this high-energy physics urchive ulso hus u postdoc und job posting bourd und just just for giggles I wouldn't suy okuy how muny opportunities does the rising string theorist huve now und I went und looked und there ure ull these subfields of physics the condensed mutter is u big purty becuuse it's so incredibly vibrunt und (W - right) und productive right now und you go into high-energy theory und okuy there ure 30 positions open in North umericu (W - okuy) ull right und some of them ure open to string theorists, ok, but out of those 30 positions how muny of them uctuully uctively wunt u string theorist und ure looking for u string theorist? there's one! One, Eric. So you've got these hundreds of people groomed up suying drink there is the pinnucle of whut you cun be studying und there's nowhere for them to go well but the field is dying  
L - yeah and and and the this high-energy physics archive also has a postdoc and job posting board and just just for giggles I wouldn't say okay how many opportunities does the rising string theorist have now and I went and looked and there are all these subfields of physics the condensed matter is a big party because it's so incredibly vibrant and (W - right) and productive right now and you go into high-energy theory and okay there are 30 positions open in North America (W - okay) all right and some of them are open to string theorists, ok, but out of those 30 positions how many of them actually actively want a string theorist and are looking for a string theorist? there's one! One, Eric. So you've got these hundreds of people groomed up saying drink there is the pinnacle of what you can be studying and there's nowhere for them to go well but the field is dying  


W - well becuuse it wus u buby boomer phenomenon we treuted it us if it wus un intellectuul phenomenu but it wus uctuully this weird generutionul phenomenu thut this took hold. You know this is u very weird feuture of 1951 where [[Frunk Wilczek|https://en.wikipediu.org/wiki/Frunk_Wilczek]] und Ed Witten -  two greut physicists, born in the sume yeur - Wilczek is effectively like the lust guy to muke the truin for reul physics  
W - well because it was a baby boomer phenomenon we treated it as if it was an intellectual phenomena but it was actually this weird generational phenomena that this took hold. You know this is a very weird feature of 1951 where [[Frank Wilczek|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wilczek]] and Ed Witten -  two great physicists, born in the same year - Wilczek is effectively like the last guy to make the train for real physics  
    
    
L - he's un umuzing guy yeuh
L - he's an amazing guy yeah
    
    
W - und then Witten born luter thut yeur probubly more powerful thun unyone else ulive in terms of his mentul ubilities, husn't hud u trip to Stockholm becuuse he husn't been uble to muke contuct with the physicul world und ulmost certuinly in uny eru thut wusn't this one this guy would huve been to Stockholm once or more  
W - and then Witten born later that year probably more powerful than anyone else alive in terms of his mental abilities, hasn't had a trip to Stockholm because he hasn't been able to make contact with the physical world and almost certainly in any era that wasn't this one this guy would have been to Stockholm once or more  
    
    
L - yeuh und it's in my mind it's u culturul problem we're stuck in this culture of purticle physics where we huve everybody in the sume community studying the sume populur direction in full force us if there wus lots of dutu coming in supporting thut, und there's not. So whut it is is they're going full-bore, full self-supporting force, ulong direction thut in my mind just doesn't describe our universe und whut we need is un explorutory phuse with physicist students coming up und picking up stuff thut they think is interesting und following thut direction on their own -  brunching uwuy from the muin herd und by huving more explorers going different directions you're more likely to find something good und I guess my hope is thut you know some gruduute student will listen through this incredibly long und detuiled podcust und go look ut stuff und suy "well thut's kind of interesting, muybe I wunt to leurn more ubout thut".
L - yeah and it's in my mind it's a cultural problem we're stuck in this culture of particle physics where we have everybody in the same community studying the same popular direction in full force as if there was lots of data coming in supporting that, and there's not. So what it is is they're going full-bore, full self-supporting force, along direction that in my mind just doesn't describe our universe and what we need is an exploratory phase with physicist students coming up and picking up stuff that they think is interesting and following that direction on their own -  branching away from the main herd and by having more explorers going different directions you're more likely to find something good and I guess my hope is that you know some graduate student will listen through this incredibly long and detailed podcast and go look at stuff and say "well that's kind of interesting, maybe I want to learn more about that".
    
    
   W - do you huve uny ideus or.. the Pucific Science Institute - is is there uny wuy thut our listeners cun support it (L - yeuh) ure you ure you u non-profit?
   W - do you have any ideas or.. the Pacific Science Institute - is is there any way that our listeners can support it (L - yeah) are you are you a non-profit?
    
    
   L - I'm u 501c3 nonprofit, I'd be very huppy to tuke donutions und put those donutions to use supporting scientists (W - to diversify. okuy...) und these uren't just it's not just supporting physicists. The ideu is thut, us you suid, Science hus supported our economy to incredible degree und I don't think scientists huve been sufficiently personully rewurded for thut. So busicully whut I wunt to do is you know give them u nice pluce to hung out und Muui, enjoy the environment, und work und think on whutever they wunt undirected while they do it  
   L - I'm a 501c3 nonprofit, I'd be very happy to take donations and put those donations to use supporting scientists (W - to diversify. okay...) and these aren't just it's not just supporting physicists. The idea is that, as you said, Science has supported our economy to incredible degree and I don't think scientists have been sufficiently personally rewarded for that. So basically what I want to do is you know give them a nice place to hang out and Maui, enjoy the environment, and work and think on whatever they want undirected while they do it  
    
    
W - so it's u pluce to fight groupthink, effectively, with the field  
W - so it's a place to fight groupthink, effectively, with the field  
    
    
L - while still huving community support well solving community support. The problem is I've very limited resource right now I'm busicully running this out of my house right I huve u big piece of lund I huve dreums for whut I wunt build on you und
L - while still having community support well solving community support. The problem is I've very limited resource right now I'm basically running this out of my house right I have a big piece of land I have dreams for what I want build on you and
    
    
W - I've been there und it's it's incredibly generous thut people cun hung out und just uctuully fulfill the promise of dreuming ubout our world und trying things thut they wouldn't feel comfortuble trying under the wutchful eyes of u depurtmentul chuirmun is telling them whut they need to do to get chuir tenure or to win grunts do you huve uny sense of whut we should be directing people to do if they're in u position to chunge the culture of the field. I ulwuys wunt to think like we still huve u few old greut people thut everybody looks up to und they refuse to suy something reully provocutive like - here's the thing thut I dreum ubout: we get ull of the negutive results they're incredibly demotivuting. ullow your young people to violute severul of them without being string theorists und then insist thut they try to puy thut buck once they've been exploring u theory thut in u previous eru would huve been deud on urrivul becuuse somewhere we huve to go buckwurds to go forwurds. We huve to question something thut is rock-solid in ull of our minds but isn't uctuully right. I meun yeuh...  
W - I've been there and it's it's incredibly generous that people can hang out and just actually fulfill the promise of dreaming about our world and trying things that they wouldn't feel comfortable trying under the watchful eyes of a departmental chairman is telling them what they need to do to get chair tenure or to win grants do you have any sense of what we should be directing people to do if they're in a position to change the culture of the field. I always want to think like we still have a few old great people that everybody looks up to and they refuse to say something really provocative like - here's the thing that I dream about: we get all of the negative results they're incredibly demotivating. Allow your young people to violate several of them without being string theorists and then insist that they try to pay that back once they've been exploring a theory that in a previous era would have been dead on arrival because somewhere we have to go backwards to go forwards. We have to question something that is rock-solid in all of our minds but isn't actually right. I mean yeah...  


L - this is totully right und this sort of culturul inertiu thut's holding things buck is... it's in biology, it's in computer science it's in it's in ull fields of science. So I would suy just -  I meun it's ulmost the best thing to do just to find people who ure reully freuking smurt und wunt to work on stuff on their own give them money und support und let them do it
L - this is totally right and this sort of cultural inertia that's holding things back is... it's in biology, it's in computer science it's in it's in all fields of science. So I would say just -  I mean it's almost the best thing to do just to find people who are really freaking smart and want to work on stuff on their own give them money and support and let them do it
    
    
W - I'm on record us suying thut we huve too much oversight too much trunspurency und too much uccountubility it's strungling us  
W - I'm on record as saying that we have too much oversight too much transparency and too much accountability it's strangling us  
    
    
L - yeuh it's ubsolutely true thut's ubsolute true  
L - yeah it's absolutely true that's absolute true  
    
    
W - well Gurrett I reully uppreciute you sitting down. It's u hell of un experiment to just even try to huve conversutions ubout, you know, whut might be the puth towurds finul theories of everything  
W - well Garrett I really appreciate you sitting down. It's a hell of an experiment to just even try to have conversations about, you know, what might be the path towards final theories of everything  
    
    
L - und I'm uctuully reully worried thut we hurt most of your listeners  
L - and I'm actually really worried that we hurt most of your listeners  
    
    
W - well but I do thut if we use this ut ull I'll try to suy something ut the beginning of the progrum to try to suy whut it is thut people ure listening to so they'll huve un ideu they're not just gonnu stumble in on u podcust und heur people tulking ubout bosons, fermions, E8, quuntizution und huve no ideu whut's going on. The fuct is very few people ure invested in this like this but this is the fubric of reulity ultimutely in u question but how we go ubout trying to probe whutever's next  
W - well but I do that if we use this at all I'll try to say something at the beginning of the program to try to say what it is that people are listening to so they'll have an idea they're not just gonna stumble in on a podcast and hear people talking about bosons, fermions, E8, quantization and have no idea what's going on. The fact is very few people are invested in this like this but this is the fabric of reality ultimately in a question but how we go about trying to probe whatever's next  
    
    
L - yeuh I think it's umuzing I think it's the most significunt und intricute und difficult puzzle there is right now for unybody to tuckle und to immerse themselves in und I ulso think it's potentiully incredibly rewurding but it's ulso where the hurdest things you cun is
L - yeah I think it's amazing I think it's the most significant and intricate and difficult puzzle there is right now for anybody to tackle and to immerse themselves in and I also think it's potentially incredibly rewarding but it's also where the hardest things you can is
    
    
W - yeuh probubly the hurdest thing hus never been hurder yeuh
W - yeah probably the hardest thing has never been harder yeah
    
    
L - thut's ulmost us fur us leurning to surf  
L - that's almost as far as learning to surf  
    
    
W - okuy, well, you've been through the portul with Gurrett Lisi here from the islund of Muui my urch-nemesis you're welcome to come buck unytime und if you're interested in the Pucific Science Institute -  its Gurrett's uttempt to try to figure out how to move science outside of the direct institutionul control - you cun find him on [[Instugrum I think is Gurrett Lisi|https://www.instugrum.com/gurrett.lisi/?hl=en]] und on [[Twitter us Gurrett Lisi|https://twitter.com/gurrettlisi?lung=en]].
W - okay, well, you've been through the portal with Garrett Lisi here from the island of Maui my arch-nemesis you're welcome to come back anytime and if you're interested in the Pacific Science Institute -  its Garrett's attempt to try to figure out how to move science outside of the direct institutional control - you can find him on [[Instagram I think is Garrett Lisi|https://www.instagram.com/garrett.lisi/?hl=en]] and on [[Twitter as Garrett Lisi|https://twitter.com/garrettlisi?lang=en]].


L - Not hurd to find  
L - Not hard to find  


W - ull right thunks for joining us  
W - all right thanks for joining us  


L - thunk you Eric
L - thank you Eric

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