Difference between revisions of "3: Werner Herzog"

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<span class="highlight">This transcript was auto-generated and needs to be cleaned up considerably. Feel free to edit this page and fix things.</span>
<span class="highlight">This transcript was auto-generated and needs to be cleaned up considerably. Feel free to edit this page and fix things.</span>


00:00:03Hello, you found the portal. I'm your host Eric Weinstein in this will be our second interview episode 2 be released. I think we have something really remarkable for you today because we have a human being who is little life that even though he makes movies that are fictional. I would say that his actual non-fiction life is more interesting than any movie. He's ever made. This is a person who has been shot on camera, a person who has stolen was forged his taught other filmmakers to steal into Forge.
00:00:03Hello, you found the portal. I'm your host Eric Weinstein, and this will be our second interview episode to be released. I think we have something really remarkable for you today because we have a human being who has led a life that even though he makes movies that are fictional I would say that his actual non-fiction life is more interesting than any movie he's ever made. This is a person who has been shot on camera, a person who has stolen, who has forged, and who has taught other filmmakers to steal and to forge.


00:00:32Person I'm talking about is Verner hertzog. Now. I first became aware of Verner hertzog when I was 16 and just entering University of Pennsylvania and a friend of mine said you've got to see this movie fitzcarraldo. I said, what is it scroll? He says if nothing else it's a story about a man. So possessed by an easy fix that he drags a boat over a mountain in the jungle in order to somehow build an opera house the whole thing sounded incredibly mad. And in fact, what was so interesting about this film was that the director actually had to do in real life with the crazy fictional character did inside of the story.
00:00:32 The person I'm talking about is Werner Herzog. Now I first became aware of Werner Herzog when I was 16 and just entering the University of Pennsylvania and a friend of mine said you've got to see this movie ''Fitzcarraldo''. I said, what is ''Fitzcarraldo''? He says if nothing else it's a story about a man so possessed by an idée fixe that he drags a boat over a mountain in the jungle in order to somehow build an opera house. The whole thing sounded incredibly mad. And in fact, what was so interesting about this film was that the director actually had to do in real life what the crazy fictional character did inside of the story.
00:01:14This led me to a fascination with the today's interview subject Verner hertzog. This is a man who has lived. So richly and so profoundly that I actually started to get a different idea about what he was doing as a filmmaker the idea that I could not Shake was his did Verner hertzog needed to live so deeply and so profoundly that he had to make movies simply to justify what it meant to be Verner hertzog. I've often asked myself this question. What is it the great generals do between Wars it's hard to imagine. Let's a patent or MacArthur in normal times. Do they just sit around and open dry cleaners? Do they write essays for their local newspaper? What is a Winston Churchill do if there is no World War?


00:02:03In such a situation. I think it's very hard to come up with an answer. But I think that the best answer that I have is that these people would make movies.
00:01:14 This led me to a fascination with today's interview subject Werner Herzog. This is a man who has lived so richly and so profoundly that I actually started to get a different idea about what he was doing as a filmmaker. The idea that I could not shake was that Werner Herzog needed to live so deeply and so profoundly that he had to make movies simply to justify what it meant to be Werner Herzog. I've often asked myself this question: What is it that great generals do between wars. It's hard to imagine, let's say, a Patton or a MacArthur in normal times. Do they just sit around and open dry cleaners? Do they write essays for their local newspaper? What does a Winston Churchill do if there is no World War II to win?


00:02:16Following interview was recorded in front of a live audience. We join the conversation in progress.
00:02:03 In such a situation, I think it's very hard to come up with an answer. But I think that the best answer that I have is that these people would make movies.


00:02:22May I just asked first of all before I try any theories of the kind do you see any clear organizing principle that unifies your output that is sort of subtle and non-obvious to your audience. Yes. I do believe so people are quite often puzzled about the range of the subject said that they'd have attracted take me to answer of welds Champions ski flyer from Switzerland in the Paleolithic cave and there's a man who moves to ship over a mountain in the Peruvian jungle and there's a film on the internet and there's a film or you just name it. So it's looks perplexing at First Sight, but I do understand although I don't like to look back at my films to off my I to understand that there's some sort of an architecture.
00:02:16 The following interview was recorded in front of a live audience. We join the conversation in progress.


00:03:22I'll shove Concepts in that sir. You would immediately understand there's a commonwealth of you very much is about the worldview and you could probably spotted very very quickly if you walked into a room and the TV was playing and there was a film within and you didn't see any credits probably within 2 minutes. You would understand. This must have been by film.
00:02:22
Eric Weinstein (EW): May I just asked first of all before I try any theories of the kind do you see any clear organizing principle that unifies your output that is sort of subtle and non-obvious to your audience?


00:03:54People see the understanding how they do it. I don't know and how I do create this coming worldview. I don't know either but it doesn't really matter. No one of the things that I've been very struck by which is what we all get wrong about Venta hertzog and because many of the stories that come out of these films in these undertakings involve tremendous seeming danger physical risk. Chaos Madness is all the things that are usually associated. I was trying to figure out what it was that those stories might cover up as if sort of cheap icing on a very rich cake and one of the things that I saw was what and correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like you have tremendous concern for the people that you bring out onto these crazy projects for their safety and well-being. Am I getting that wrong?
Werner Herzog (WH): Yes, I do believe so. People are quite often puzzled about the range of the subjects that have attracted me. There's a world champion ski flyer from Switzerland, and there's a Paleolithic cave, and there's a man who moves a ship over a mountain in the Peruvian jungle, and there's a film on the internet, and there's a film... you just name it. So it looks perplexing at first sight, but I do understand although I don't like to look back at my films often I do understand that there's some sort of an architecture


00:04:54Waste any time of what some people get wrong about me doesn't really matter let them be wrong. But one of the things set comes up quite often seems to be an identification of the creator of Astoria create a character named Lee me with the quality set. The Creator automatically has to have in other words. If I do a film like I carry the wrath of God about A demented crazed a conquistador 1560s in the Peruvian Amazon people fight off. Mommy's lead to point out hearts of must have these qualities obsessive and demented and borderline paranoid. And so now they think I understand them, but they are not my quality say invention.
00:03:22 of concepts in that you would immediately understand there's a common worldview. Very much it's about the worldview, and you could probably spot it very very quickly if you walked into a room and the TV was playing and there was a film within and you didn't see any credits. Probably within 2 minutes, you would understand this must have been my film.


00:05:54You picked an actor in Klaus Kinski who might I mean I would venture to say did have some of those qualities is that wrong? I think you actually have to be handed a pot of of being an actor who was really under the grace of creation to two to make things that we have not seen before or after my screen. So otherwise she was the mildest who takes price would be he was the ultimate pestilence. He was also distracted if he would destroy a sect he would say when we had a we actually had two plane crashes on Fitts characters small aircraft and we didn't know what had happened. We had a very sketchy and shortwave radio connection with a ketose about 1,500 kilometers away in garbage messages with Camille.
00:03:54 People see, they understand it. How they do it? I don't know. And how I do create this common worldview? I don't know either but it doesn't really matter.  


00:06:55Play nice town in 10 with desperately tried was it nearby could be send out a search party or what who was important what had happened and we had a happy camper Sometimes some days my route stops in the afternoon and shoot into the night breakfast would be served from Hawks to have to hurt inside with the last hats would have it cold coffee this morning by Queen. Sedan. Kinski was the last hot and I heard it from from Henry 50 yards away screaming out. I mean at the complete no. Just a tantrum. It was it was just an outburst of Rage because his coffee was lukewarm and he stormed at the place where we were checking on on the radio in trying to figure out and he kept screaming and screaming I could not calm him down. I could not get him away. I try to tell him there's a plane down you have to keep quiet.
EW: Now one of the things that I've been very struck by which is what we all get wrong about Werner Herzog and because many of the stories that come out of these films in these undertakings involve tremendous seeming danger of physical risk, chaos, madness, all the things that are usually associated. I was trying to figure out what it was that those stories might cover up as if sort of cheap icing on a very rich cake and one of the things that I saw was what - and correct me if I'm wrong - It seems like you have tremendous concern for the people that you bring out onto these crazy projects for their safety and well-being. Am I getting that wrong?


00:07:55Must listen to too much has happened. It wouldn't help at all. It would scream and he would scream he could scream of a gas into a liquid shatter a glass of wine glass and the only way I could often an hour and a half when he had already Frost hard and prophetess at his mouth. I went to my heart rate. I hit a little piece of Swiss chocolate left, which I treasure in our camp and I stepped in front of him intimidate this chocolate in dead silence thermostat. That was something which was standing and you knew you intuited that this would have that effect. I should have intuition after 5 minutes it took over an hour.
00:04:54 WH: No, We shouldn't waste any time of what some people get wrong about me doesn't really matter let them be wrong. But one of the things that comes up quite often seems to be an identification of the creator of a story, a creator of a character, namely me me with the qualities that the creator automatically has to have. In other words, If I do a film like ''Aguirre, the Wrath of God'' about a demented, crazed conquistador 1560s in the Peruvian Amazon people quite often are mislead to point out Herzog must have these qualities: obsessive and demented and borderline paranoia. And no I understand them, but they are not my qualities, they are inventions.


00:08:55So that probably makes it quite often qualities of the characters in my films have been superimposed on my on my own. Karaoke. Frank said life acted in some Hollywood films in some Independent films Jack Reacher, for example, and I'm playing the real real dangerous badass bad guy and I am very very dangerous and I had to and I'm on arms and I have no fingers left and I am blind on one eye and yet I had to spread Terror from the screen and I did it so well, I did it sell well that my reviews were much better than the reviews for Tom Cruise.
00:05:54 EW: But you picked an actor in Klaus Kinski who might I mean I would venture to say did have some of those qualities. is that wrong?


00:09:44I know it's true. It's I'm not exaggerating. I was good, but it not that I can say this kind of bile dangerous character is really in me.
WH: Of course he had it. A part of being an actor who was really under the grace of creation to make things that we have not seen before or after on the screen. So otherwise he was the mildest I could express would be he was the ultimate pestilence. But he was also destructive. He would destroy a set, he would when we had a we actually had two plane crashes on ''Fitzcarraldo'', small aircraft and we didn't know what had happened. We had a very sketchy shortwave radio connection with Iquitos about 1,100 kilometers away. And garbage messages would come in.


00:09:58Really easy? I did it. I'm creepy have you seen and I have learned that so when we did Fitzgerald in the first round of shooting that was Mick Jagger in the sidekick of the leading character in Django spent six weeks with us in the jungle Resort have the film had to stop because the leading character became ill we had to send him to the states and the doctors wouldn't allow him to return to the Jungle. So I knew I had to start all over again and don't check his contract. There was no time enough left, but doing the whole feeling Moldova. I shot the film actually wanted a half times.
00:06:55 "Plane is down." And we desperately tried, was it nearby, could we send out a search party, or what who was a part of what had happened. And we had it happen in our camp. Sometimes some days my route starts in the afternoon and shoot into the night. Breakfast would be served from hut to hut to hut. And so the last hut would have cold coffee. This morning by conincidence, Kinski was the last hut and I heard it from from 150 yards away screaming out. I mean at the complete, not just a tantrum. It was it was just an outburst of rage because his coffee was lukewarm and he stormed at the place where we were checking on the radio and trying to figure out and he kept screaming and screaming I could not calm him down. I could not get him away. I try to tell him there's a plane down you have to keep quiet.


00:10:40Into what what what is strange about this recasting and in restarting the whole thing? I knew if I did not find a necktie quickly in such a case. I had no alternative but playing the part made myself because I would have been incredible and I would have been good not as good as let's say Mick Jagger and Jason robots okinsky and I learned one thing from from Mick Jagger which astonished he took me once backstage when they were recording.
00:07:55 We must listen to what has happened. It wouldn't help at all. He would scream and he would scream he could scream a glass, he could shatter a glass, a wine glass. Really, I mean it, I do not exaggerate. And so the only way I could after an hour and a half when he had already froth, hardened froth at his mouth. I went to my hut, and I had a little piece of Swiss chocolate left, which people would murder for such a treasure in our camp. And I stepped in front of him and ate this chocolate, and that silenced him. That was something which was stunning.


00:11:23Enter have a say I am to intybus arguing with somebody about some totally trivial things completely and utterly trivial things and also known I said he was arguing about the mineral water about the per diem or something and I said to him make the camera is rolling and he looks at me and he sees we are already doing it in his steps three steps in front of the camera and we simply three steps. He becomes a demon.
EW: And you knew, you intuited that this would have that effect.  


00:12:00Trivial trivial little Pickering mediocre kind of character is steps in front in the he's a demon and index in a in a way. I learned that from him and I didn't prepare myself when I stepped in front of the camera. I knew there was only one thing.
WH: I should have intuition after 5 minutes. It took over an hour.


00:12:24Be calm and be frightening and I can do it only because I knew I could do it. So you're really not the ultimate badass.
00:08:55 So, but the problem is that qualities of the characters in my films have been super imposed on my own character. For example, I have acted in some Hollywood films and some independent films, Jack Reacher, for example. And I'm playing the real real dangerous badass bad guy and I am very very dangerous and I had to and I'm unarmed and I have no fingers left, and I am blind on one eye, and yet I had to spread terror from the screen, and I did it so well, I did it so well that my reviews were much better than the reviews for Tom Cruise.


00:12:37Because I tried. Maybe I am but unbeknownst to me. Okay, it feels to me. Like I was just watching video of you video of you being interviewed by the BBC and then probably your shot in the abdomen while being interviewed and you seem to be so much hype somewhat irritated that the interviewer is treating this as a big deal and I think otherwise it how would I know that you wear Paisley underwear me and you you take your your pants down cuz I go to to CTI meeting. It's it's not that big of a bullet that's that was your attitude. Actually. I said something we're beautiful I said, this is an insignificant to take note perforated everything you played through. My check is in the catalog in the pocketed everything but didn't perforate into my intestines. So that was insignificant, but
00:09:44 WH: No it's true. I'm not exaggerating. I was good, but not that I can say this kind of vile, dangerous character is really in me.
00:13:37I think they immediately hit the hit the ground like a camera flat and I have the feeling stay. Let's finish at least two sentences great video. I mean foot damage was great video, but what I'm trying to suggest sir is that you are the unreliable narrator you are actually I'm the one who makes sense. I'm the one who puts order into a chaotic situation. That's what you did. But when I'm what I'm saying is that when your autonomic nervous system is is triggered it barely registers. You've been shot in the abdomen stretches that it's hurt each other yet because I was laughing hard. It was still hurting UT Dallas service, but that's very unusual. These are real Statics part of being a good soldier of Cinema that I tried to be with a sense of unity.


00:14:37You have to be reliable. You have to hold an outpost state of a safety pin up its loyalty. It's in his loyalty to the entire crew that was yet. However, they they argue that we should call the police right away. And I said let's not do it because three of them to spend the next six hours in the in a police station to file charges. And do you want to see a helicopter circling there? And do you want to see a SWAT team in ten minutes flat? Right. Do you want to see that? My answer is no but it's okay. Let's move out of the danger zone because of the demand with a with a rifle was still somewhere hiding on the Terrace in hiding inside the building can't get out of there. But let's continue. Let's continue this all your team has come from from the UK and you have to return tomorrow. Let's
00:09:58 EW: Really?  


00:15:37Beethoven music
WH: And it came very easy. I did it unprepared you see, and I have learned that when we did Fitzgerald in the first round of shooting there was Mick Jagger as the sidekick of the leading character and Jagger spent six weeks with us in the jungle. We shot half the film, had to stop because the leading character became ill. We had to send him to the States and the doctors wouldn't allow him to return to the jungle. So I knew I had to start all over again. And on Jagger's contract, there was not time enough left for doing the whole film all over. I shot the film actually one and a half times.


00:15:39Texas sense of beauty I appreciate it very much. But tell me what you're talkin about is the highest levels of discipline and military style leadership that goes far beyond yes, but you should be careful about Mitch confusing it with military discipline where there's some sort line deterrence to give an order. I like to think I do think what I'm doing and I do not ask anyone to do blindly something in front of the camera. There's a safety. Margin whenever things are difficult in let's say borderline dangerous. I would always do it myself first for the actor.
00:10:40 What is strange about this recasting and in restarting the whole thing? I knew if I did not find an actor quickly, in such a case, I had no alternative but playing the part myself because I would have been credible, and I would have been good, not as good as let's say Mick Jagger and Jason Robards, or Kinski. And I learned one thing from from Mick Jagger which astonished me. He took me once backstage when they were recording.


00:16:25I would go through the Rapids with a small raft to see that's a raft to survive these three consecutive Rapids very simple single Christian Bale in Rescue Dawn replace a a german-born Navy pilot who is shut down in 40 minutes to his first mission over Vietnam War Laos. He would actually was the only American pows who managed to escape from a potted Flower and Gift Card in captivity an incredible story into Christian Bale who plays the part of human they're starving to death almost starving to death and they get some food that is Infested by hundreds and hundreds of wriggling maggots.
00:11:23 And I was there and he was arguing with somebody about some totally trivial things, completely and utterly trivial things. And also on my set he was arguing about the mineral water, or about the per diem, or something and I said to him "Mick the camera is rolling" and he looks at me and he sees we are already doing it and he steps three steps in front of the camera and within three steps, he becomes a demon.


00:17:19And we use maggots its native people to eat, but they would roast them not not alive in and still wriggling selling. I said to Christian books Dieter dengler. The real character told me they had to do whatever nutrients and lots of nutrients in these maggots ate it and I said to let you know about give me the plate and give me a spoon. I'm I'm going to eat a few spoonfuls which I did and he said I'll come on stop it stop it. I'm let's roll the camera and I'm going to get over it quickly. So he did and in that was one of the very very few moments of controversy between the two of us because I told him and he didn't hear it. Apparently. I told him Christian, you know, what you stop eating when you really have when you had it.
00:12:00 From a trivial trivial little bickering mediocre kind of character he steps in front and he's a demon. And that in a way, I learned that from him and I didn't prepare myself. When I stepped in front of the camera, I knew there was only one thing.


00:18:19And you keep eating eating eating until the plate is empty and then I say cut and he said why didn't you say cat before by but what happened in the set Christian you are the one who should have cut set cats, but you didn't hear it and it was kind of miffed.
00:12:24 Be calm and be frightening. And I can do it. And I would accept it only because I knew I could do it.  


00:18:37But but those those moments say they do have men to end in the unexpected on the set. That's movie. Yeah.
EW: So you're really not the ultimate badass.


00:18:53Right, I guess those moments do happened. So it does strike me though that I tested it first, but you said would do that always test it first seems like that unit is Raley's have a theory of leadership, which is called follow me where they take the highest value person on the team that the general is the colonel and he goes into Danger first because the morale of the troops he has so much heightened when they when you see a leader saying I will actually take that kind of a risk that seems to be a part of how you guess the great for example always on foot with his soldiers. He would not ride on his horse. It would be on foot mm of Miles. He would be the first to climb the ramparts on the leather. He would be the one who been the first student and almost dying from first one soldier collected.
00:12:37 WH: Uh.


00:19:53Image full of water pitch by pitch drop by drop intent, when when the first was it is worse. This foot foot man comes in steps in front of Alexander and says save this for you drink this and Alexander looks it even spells it away. And he says too much for one too little for all in March is so that's leadership or anybody who crossed the Alps with elephants. He would sleep with his soldiers at The Outpost wrapped in his in his coat and he would lose an eye Crossing an ice-cold River South of the Alps and he would do things that nobody else in his army, whatever to
EW: Because I-
00:20:47Do you feel that this aspect of leadership of putting oneself in the greatest situations of risk and harm is of course, but do you eliminate arm before I Tema Pierce?


00:21:03You see you have to be prudent and then any kind of business including the business of warfare, you have to evaluate the situation and you have to try to to avoid the danger for anyone the leader in in the troop. You better stay out of it and you would you use all sorts of military tricked trickery deceit you use and bushes you use the so-called cowardly things into before you really put anyone into very grave danger eliminate, whatever you can sometimes you can't eliminate everything but sheet shorts. Of course, I buy a Jesse Ventura used to be a bodyguard of the
WH: Maybe I am but unbeknownst to me.
 
EW: Well okay, it feels to me like I was just watching video of you being interviewed by the BBC and improbably you're shot in the abdomen while being interviewed and you seem to be somewhat irritated that the interviewer is treating this as a big deal and I think otherwise how would I know that you wear paisley underwear? I mean, you take your your pants down...
 
WH: Yeah, because I want people to see it.
 
EW: ...because you're bleeding. And why is it... it's not that big of a bullet - that was your attitude.
 
WH: No, I actually I said something more beautiful. I said, this is an insignificant bullet.
 
EW: Yeah, that's true.
 
WH: And I knew it had not perforated everything. It went through my jacket in the catalog in the pocket and everything but didn't perforate into my intestines. So that was insignificant, but
 
00:13:37 they immediately hit the hit the ground laid the camera flat and I have the feeling, Stay, let's finish it. At least the sentence.
 
EW: Because it was great video.
 
WH: I mean for the image it was great video.
 
EW: But what I'm trying to suggest sir is that you are the unreliable narrator. You are actually...
 
WH: No, I'm the one who makes sense. I'm the one who puts order into a chaotic situation.
 
EW: That's what you did. But what I'm saying is that when your autonomic nervous system is is triggered it barely registers. You've been shot in the abdomen...
 
WH: It registered, it hurt. It hurt a year, because when I was laughing hard, it was still hurting. Yes, but there's a sense of duty.
 
EW: Which I very much appreciate. That's very unusual. These are real...
 
WH: Yes, but it's part of being a good soldier of cinema that I tried to be with a sense of duty.
 
00:14:37 You have to be reliable. You have to hold an outpost that others have given up. It's loyalty. And it's loyalty to the entire crew that was there. However, they they argue that we should call the police right away. And I said let's not do it because do you want to spend the next six hours in a police station to file charges? And do you want to see a helicopter circling there? And do you want to see a SWAT team in ten minutes flat?
 
EW: Right.
 
WH: Do you want to see that? My answer is no but it's okay. Let's move out of the danger zone because the man with a rifle was still somewhere hiding on a terrace in hiding inside the building get out of there. But let's continue. Let's continue this all your team has come from from the UK and you have to return tomorrow. Let's get over with it.
 
00:15:39 So it's a sense of duty.
 
EW: I appreciate that very much. But what you're talking about is the highest levels of discipline and military style leadership. I mean this goes far beyond...
 
WH: Yes, but you should be careful about confusing it with military discipline where there's some sort blind adherence to given orders. I do think what I'm doing and I do not ask anyone to do blindly something in front of the camera. But there's a safety margin whenever things are difficult and let's say borderline dangerous. I would always do it myself first for the actor.
 
00:16:25 I would go through the rapids with a small raft to see does a raft survive these three consecutive rapids. Or a very simple thing Christian Bale in Rescue Dawn. He plays a German-born Navy pilot who is shot down in 40 minutes in his first mission over Vietnam War Laos. He was actually was the only American POW who managed to escape from the Vietcong in captivity, an incredible story. And Christian Bale who plays the part of him, they're starving to death almost starving to death and they get some food that is infested by hundreds and hundreds of wriggling maggots.
 
00:17:19 And we use maggots that native people would eat, but they would roast them. Not not alive and still wriggling. So I said to Christian that was what Dieter Dengler, the real character, told me they had to do. There were nutrients a lot of nutrients in these maggots. They ate it. And I said to Christian you know what give me the plate and give me a spoon. I'm going to eat a few spoonfuls which I did and he said oh come on stop it stop it. Let's roll the camera and I'm going to get over it quickly. So he did and that was one of the very very few moments of controversy between the two of us because I told him and he didn't hear it. Apparently. I told him Christian, you know, what you stop eating when you really have when you had it.
 
00:18:19 And you keep eating eating eating until the plate is empty and then I say cut and he said why didn't you say cut before? What happened? And I said Christian you are the one who should have said cut, but you didn't hear it and he was kind of miffed.
 
00:18:37 But but those those moments they do happen, the unexpected on the set. That's movies.
 
EW: Yeah.
 
00:18:53 Right, I guess those moments do happen. So it does strike me though...
 
WH: I tested it first...
 
EW: But you said...
 
WH: I would always test it first
 
EW: It seems like that's... you know the Israelis have a theory of leadership which is called follow me where they take the highest value person on the team, that is the general, the colonel... and he goes into danger first because the morale of the troops is so much heightened when you see a leader saying I will actually take that kind of a risk. That seems to be a part of how you get this fanatical loyalty.
 
WH: For example, a very long tradition Alexander the Great for example always on foot with his soldiers. He would not ride on his horse. He would be on foot thousands of miles. He would be the first to climb the ramparts on a ladder. He would be the one who when they were thirsty and almost dying from thirst, one soldier collected a helmet full of water, bit by bit, drop by drop.
 
00:19:53 And, when the thirst was at its worst, this footman comes and steps in front of Alexander and says I save this for you, drink this and Alexander looks at it, and spills it away and says, "Too much for one, too little for all," and marches away. So that's leadership. Or Hannibal, who crossed the Alps on elephants. He would sleep with his soldiers at the outpost wrapped in his in his coat and he would lose an eye crossing an ice-cold river south of the Alps and he would do things that nobody else in his army would ever do.
 
00:20:47 EW: Do you feel that this aspect of leadership of putting oneself in the greatest situations of risk and harm is...
 
WH: No you avoid harm if possible. You eliminate harm before it even appears.
 
00:21:03 You see you have to be prudent, And in any kind of business including the business of warfare, you have to evaluate the situation and you have to try to avoid the danger for anyone the leader and the troop. You better stay out of it and you use all sorts of military trickery, deceit. You use and bushes you use the so-called cowardly things into before you really put anyone into very grave danger eliminate, whatever you can sometimes you can't eliminate everything but sheet shorts. Of course, I buy a Jesse Ventura used to be a bodyguard of the
00:22:03Rolling Stones by the way into used to be a studio wrestler play the the bad guy by the way in the completely stylized and he became governor of Minnesota and I always liked him for his down-to-earth approach and he said once about his time in the ring is as a wrestler it's as one of these WrestleMania people and he said to win if you can
00:22:03Rolling Stones by the way into used to be a studio wrestler play the the bad guy by the way in the completely stylized and he became governor of Minnesota and I always liked him for his down-to-earth approach and he said once about his time in the ring is as a wrestler it's as one of these WrestleMania people and he said to win if you can


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