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Difference between revisions of "11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends"
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11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends (view source)
Revision as of 01:19, 22 March 2020
, 01:19, 22 March 2020→Transcript
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'''Sam:''' 00:04:09 Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount... | '''Sam:''' 00:04:09 Like this is an example, so you take the New York Times and you and I whinge about The New York Times a fair amount... | ||
Eric I've been watching you transition. | '''Eric''' I've been watching you transition. | ||
Sam Yeah (laughter) I've grown pretty dark about the paper record. | '''Sam''' Yeah (laughter) I've grown pretty dark about the paper of record. | ||
Eric That's new. | '''Eric''' That's new. | ||
Sam Yeah, yeah. | '''Sam''' Yeah, yeah. | ||
Eric Like years ago you were somewhere else. | '''Eric''' Like years five ago you were somewhere else. | ||
Sam Yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about The New York Times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted? | '''Sam''' Yeah, yeah, but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about The New York Times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted? | ||
Eric Well I was on, I've been on the New York Times since the 80s, um... | '''Eric''' Well I was on, I've been on the New York Times since the '80s, um... | ||
Sam So you were early to this party. | '''Sam''' So you were early to this party. | ||
Eric Yeah, I was very early to this party for... | '''Eric''' Yeah, I was very early to this party for... | ||
Sam But something has changed. So it's this | '''Sam''' But something has changed. So it's this - is this worse than the '80s? | ||
Eric It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that its problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter.. | '''Eric''' It's a good question. Depends. Worse isn't the right word, in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that its problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism. And the first clear indication I have of this, I think, was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter.. | ||
Sam How old are you? You're not that much older than me. (laughter) | '''Sam''' How old are you? You're not that much older than me. (laughter) | ||
Eric I'm 53 sir | '''Eric''' I'm 53, sir. | ||
Sam I was still in my diapers | '''Sam''' I was still in my diapers... | ||
Eric No, no, no, no, no | '''Eric''' No, no, no, no, no! I don't remember this as a three year old! | ||
Sam We're talking 69? or, something like that? | '''Sam''' We're talking '69? or, something like that? | ||
Eric Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading | '''Eric''' Yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading - I will clarify - I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent, who was sent to cover Woodstock by The Times, being told, 'Write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...' | ||
Sam (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the | '''Sam''' (laughter) Strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60's for myself. | ||
Eric | '''Eric''' Ok | ||
Sam And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60's that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at you know | '''Sam''' And had nothing but, you know, nostalgia for the 60's that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at the, you know, the "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" moment. That was a, it was just the level of dysfunction and the non-acknowledgement of dysfunction. It was pretty shocking. | ||
Eric Well... | Eric Well... | ||
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Sam Okay. | Sam Okay. | ||
Eric The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how...' | '''Eric''' The, what I recall of the story was, is that The Times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up The Times and said, 'I refuse. I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart-opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how...' | ||
Sam And I have have cholera | Sam And I have have cholera (laughter) | ||
Eric So I think that the narrative aspect of The New York Times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at The Times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter-narratives occur, The Times really either doesn't report the story as is, and they really couldn't handle the-the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter-narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative. | Eric And I have cholera. So I think that the narrative aspect of The New York Times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at The Times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter-narratives occur, The Times really either doesn't report the story as is, and they really couldn't handle the-the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter-narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative. | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:07:24 So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - I mean I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening. | '''Eric:''' 00:07:24 So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that The Times writes that I find absolutely - I mean I'll go so far as to say - borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening. | ||
Sam Mmm | '''Sam''' Mmm | ||
Eric So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at The New York Times all along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn-based writers who are telling us how to, how to think. | '''Eric''' So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at The New York Times all along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn-based writers who are telling us how to, how to think. | ||
'''Sam''' Yeah. | |||
Eric What do you make of it? | '''Eric''' What do you make of it? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:08:08 I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well. | '''Sam:''' 00:08:08 I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, The Times and the Post and The Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well. | ||
Eric Trump is saving their business. | '''Eric''' Trump is saving their business. | ||
Sam | '''Sam''' Yeah. I mean they were actually there, they weren't doing great before Trump, but now they're doing okay. But the rest of journalism has been gutted. And now we basically have the Blogosphere and you know, kind of what the Huffington Post did to the landscape where you just have a lot of people blogging for free propping up a, a, an ad-based clickbait business model. | ||
Eric Sure. But again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere, and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the Office of Management and Budget or something or... | '''Eric''' Sure. But again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere, and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the Office of Management and Budget or something or... | ||
'''Sam''' But it's not what I'm saying to be bad about journalism in general. Is that what you think of as the institution. I mean, just like the veneer, the front-facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think Salon was real journalism or with The Guardian. I mean, The Guardian has like kind of the blog side and The Guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well.. | |||
and you find the same people on Twitter | '''Eric''' ...and you find the same people on Twitter. | ||
'''Sam''' And then everyone is nuts on Twitter, whatever their reputation, right? Really is, you know, or should have been. | |||
Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in | '''Eric''' Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in their journalistic frame. | ||
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'''Sam:''' 00:12:50 Well, I would argue that, you know | '''Sam:''' 00:12:50 Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias irresponsible, essentially it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things. You're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion. | ||
'''Eric''' Well, I agree with that. Although I would say you and I are very split on this, so put a placeholder. | |||
'''Sam''' Sure | |||
'''Eric''' Maybe we'll get back to it. Maybe not. I'm more worried about the loss of things like Nature and Science than I am The New York Times. I'm now worried that there is nothing, and even in the hard sciences almost that can stand up to the onslaught of political pressure creeping in to everything that has to be able to say no, that we've lost the ability to tell people to screw off if they're wrong. | |||
'''Sam:''' 00:13:49 Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time. | '''Sam:''' 00:13:49 Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time. | ||
'''Eric:''' 00:13:57 | '''Eric:''' 00:13:57 Yeah. Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of inroads there. And so I find the loss of, of Nature and Cell in the universities terrifying differently from The New York Times. Like this is, this is a few layers deeper and more dangerous. Do you not perceive that? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:14:22 Oh, I think it | '''Sam:''' 00:14:22 Oh, I think it's just different problems. I don't know which is more consequential. I think the I think the failure to have a fact-based discussion and the incentives to avoid one, I think that's just the scariest thing we have going apart from the true Monsters of Pandemic and Nuclear War and things like that. | ||
Well, those are now increasingly relative | '''Eric''' Well, those are now increasingly relative with the, you know, vaxxer or anti-vaxxer you know, controversy, but the self-refereeing, like one of the things that's really important to have a decent discussion, in my opinion, is that you have to agree what a discussion is and what constitutes an illegal move. And increasingly I feel like we're having these combat sports where we can't agree on what rules - like is biting an ear part of boxing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who's to say, well, that's an imposition of your views on mine. Who can still self-adjudicate? | ||
'''Sam:''' 00:15:27 Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right? | '''Sam:''' 00:15:27 Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right? You see people try to enshrine a new set of rules that prove unworkable in some of the context, you know, or, or they, they just can't live up to them because of... it's impossible. I mean, we're now noticing, and it's been widely observed that more or less, if you wait around long enough, everyone's going to get canceled. You know, it's like the repurposing of the Warhol quote, you know, we'll all be canceled for 15 minutes at some point. | ||
laughter =-=== fifteen minutes! | '''Eric''' laughter =-=== fifteen minutes! | ||
And so, just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only (laughter) black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface. | And so, just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only (laughter) black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface. | ||