Difference between revisions of "11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends"

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11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends (view source)

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'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  
'''Sam:''' We had an Addams family podcast.  
'''Eric:''' Exactly. so we're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game to what is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?
'''Eric:''' Exactly. so we're, we're trying things, I'm learning a little bit. But first of all any, anytime you want to flip the tables on me, I'm game, too. What is top of mind for you at the moment or should we, should, I can go into some topics that I'm curious about?


'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Sam:'''    00:01:42      Whatever you want to go. This is your show.  
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually filling the voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  
'''Eric:''' Okay. So one of the things that I'm starting to think about is doing a little bit of retrospective work, trying to think about where our world, our country is, we're going into another electoral cycle. And I just think this is the most bizarre age imaginable. It doesn't behave like any previous time. And I hear that we're at peak this and peak that, but I don't see any signs of the, what I increasingly see is the incoherence, slowing down. Are you also perceiving a world that is kind of intellectually unraveling or are you seeing new kinds of formations that give you the idea that something is actually filling the, um, voids that have been opening up when it comes to coherence?  


'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it in.
'''Sam:''' Well, I, I worry that this is a kind of cognitive delusion to think that the time you're in is always sort of newly chaotic or incoherent or you know, that civilization's on the brink in some new way in your time. But I, but I, I'm taken in by it.


'''Eric:'''You gotta be kidding! This-this has never happened.  
'''Eric:'''You gotta be kidding! This-this has never happened.  
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'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...
'''Eric:''' Oh, I don't mean to suggest that like this is, I mean in general...


'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and you know, maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I'd be hard pressed to find it at the moment.  
'''Sam:'''  00:03:21  No, I don't mean like World War II was about to happen, you know, or World War III is happening, but the, um, I do feel like we are witnessing several sea changes, which I couldn't have honestly said that, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago, I mean, something has changed and it's, some things have clearly changed, changed for the worse and maybe, maybe there's a silver lining to this chaos, but I would be hard pressed to find it at the moment.  


Well, so when I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos where we're we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting because I don't like the ground level. He said, she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.
Eric:  Well, so when I'm starting to think about what kind of chaos we're in and using the fact that you and I agree on a lot, which I think makes our disagreements more interesting because I don't like the ground level he said/she said kinds of disagreements. I don't think they're that interesting. For me, the big thing that's really new, um, is that I can't think of a single institution I trust. There's no place that I can go to for ground truth.


'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      This is an example. So you take the New York times and you and I whinge about the New York times a fair amount. What I've been watching you transition I've grown pretty dark about the, the paper records. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've, years ago you were somewhere else, but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about the New York times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted while I was on, I've been on the New York times since the 80s so you were early to this party. I was very early to this party. For, but something has changed. So it's this, is this worse than the 80s? It's a good question. Depends. Worst isn't the right word in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that it's, problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism.
'''Sam:'''        00:04:09      Like this is an example, so you take the New York times and you and I whinge about the New York times a fair amount...


'''Sam:'''        00:05:00      And the first clear indication I have of this I think was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter, how old are you? You're not that much older than me. I was still in my diapers. No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as 69 or, yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading. I will clarify. I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent who was sent to cover Woodstock by the times being told, write about the filth and the hippies and then camp furnace. And strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, at one point, I had a,
Eric    I've been watching you transition


Speaker 3:          00:05:44      The, the  
Sam yeah I've grown pretty dark about the paper record


'''Sam:'''        00:05:48      I, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself and had nothing but you know, nostalgia for the 60s that I missed. But now I have a fairly Joan Didion look at you know, the, the slouching towards Bethlehem moment. That was a w it just the level of dysfunction and the non acknowledgement of dysfunction it was pretty shocking. So I'm not getting really,
Eric  That's new
Sam Yeah. Yeah.  


'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Get declined. Okay. Okay. The, what I recall of the story was, is that the times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up the times and said, I refuse, I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how can I have cholera? I've called her. So I think that the narrative aspect of the New York times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at the times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter narratives occur, the times really either doesn't report the story as, and they really couldn't handle the, the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative.
Eric ike years ago you were somewhere else,  


'''Eric:'''    00:07:24      So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that the times writes that I find. Absolutely. I mean I'll go so far as to say borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening. So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at the New York times. All along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn based writers who are telling us how to, how to think. Yeah. What w
yeah yeah but I guess I'm wondering whether the cohort before us 20 years ago had this same litany of complaints about the New York times or whether it's something fundamentally has shifted


'''Sam:'''        00:08:08      Well, you make it, I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, the T the times and the post and the Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well, Trump is saving their business. Yes. Yeah. I mean they were actually there, they weren't doing great before Trump, but now they're doing okay. But the rest of journalism has been gutted. And now we basically have the blogosphere and you know, kind of what the Huffington post it to the landscape where you just have a lot of people blogging for free propping up a, a an ad based clickbait business model.
well I was on, I've been on the New York times since the 80s


'''Sam:'''        00:08:54      Sure. but again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, you know, the office of management and budget or something or, but it's not what I'm saying to be bad for journalists about journalism in general. Is that what you think of as the institution? I mean, just like the veneer, the front facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like a, you can, it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is, is apparently non-existent.
so you were early to this party.  


'''Sam:'''        00:09:48      I mean, so like, you know, people used to think salon was real journalism or out with the guardian. I mean, the guardian has like a kind of the blog side and the the guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well, and you find the same people on Twitter and then everyone is nuts on Twitter, whatever their reputation, right? Really is, you know, or should have been. Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in there. A journalistic frame.
I was very early to this party for...
 
but something has changed. So it's this, is this worse than the 80s?
 
It's a good question. Depends. Worst isn't the right word in my opinion. The way I would play with it is I'd say that it's problem has always been the same, which is narrative-driven journalism.
 
''':'''        00:05:00      And the first clear indication I have of this I think was a story about Woodstock in which the paper told the reporter,
 
Sam how old are you? You're not that much older than me. laughter
I"m 53 sir
 
I was still in my diapers.
 
No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember this as a three year old
 
it was 69? or,
something like that
yeah, no, no, it's not that. I remember reading,I will clarify. I remember reading a story about the journalist being sent who was sent to cover Woodstock by the times being told, write about the filth and the hippies and the unkemptness...
 
laughter strangely, that's a bias that I now share. I, I, At one point, I had a, I, there was a point in my life in my, in my twenties where I kind of recapitulated the 60s for myself
 
ok
 
and had nothing but you know, nostalgia for the 60s that I missed. But now I have a fairly jaundidian look at you know, the, the slouching towards Bethlehem moment. That was a it was just the level of dysfunction and the non acknowledgement of dysfunction it was pretty shocking.
Well
So I'm not getting really...
I'm not gonna
 
'''Eric:'''    00:06:17      Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not going back. Gambit declined.
Okay. Okay.
The, what I recall of the story was, is that the times that told the reporter what sort of story to file, and the reporter called up the times and said, I refuse, I'm seeing something different. I'm seeing something inspiring and heart opening and I'm not going to file that story. So if that's what you want, how
 
and I have have cholera? 
 
So I think that the narrative aspect of the New York times has been both its structural reason for its importance and the fatal flaw that in essence it carries these very long narrative arcs that come from the editor, the editorial function at the times. And that those are written in some sense before the facts are known. And so the facts are then fit to the narratives. And then when the counter narratives occur, the times really either doesn't report the story as, and they really couldn't handle the, the situation that happened with my brother because it was exactly counter narrative or then they distort based on the idea that they need to push things back into the narrative.
'''Eric:'''    00:07:24      So I think that has always been present. And there are particular kinds of stories that the times writes that I find Absolutely I mean I'll go so far as to say borderline evil. And what they do is they crowd out whatever natural inquiry process would be happening.
mmm
So I'm happy to get into a couple of examples about that. But I would say I think that the problem has been there at the New York times All along. There are some new things that I see as happening there, like a conflict between the old line journalists with the new line of sort of, you know, Brooklyn based writers who are telling us how to, how to think. Yeah. What do you make of it
 
'''Sam:'''        00:08:08      I don't know if this the time is maybe an exception here, but I think generally what's happening in journalism, there's just been a clearing out of real journalists, right? I mean, the business has gotten so bad and again, the T the times and the post and the Atlantic, there's a few outliers here that are doing well in the age of Trump at least, you know, sort of, well,
 
Trump is saving their business.
 
Yes. Yeah. I mean they were actually there, they weren't doing great before Trump, but now they're doing okay. But the rest of journalism has been gutted. And now we basically have the blogosphere and you know, kind of what the Huffington post did to the landscape where you just have a lot of people blogging for free propping up a, a an ad based clickbait business model.
 
  Sure. but again, that the, I, I guess what I want to play with is, is there something special about institutions? Imagine that you can get all of the interesting articles that you like somewhere and somebody's saying something interesting, you can piece them together. But the fact that there's no institutional home where you can trust that, like, the office of management and budget or something or,
 
but it's not what I'm saying to be bad for journalists about journalism in general. Is that what you think of as the institution? I mean, just like the veneer, the front facing website is not even an institution in many cases. It's like it's a hard to differentiate what is a blog and what is an actual journalistic resource that has editors and fact-checkers and copy editors. And you know, for certain sites, the distinction is, is apparently non-existent. I mean, so like, you know, people used to think salon was real journalism or out with the guardian. I mean, the guardian has like a kind of the blog side and the the guardian side and you can't tell the difference. You're just reading what somebody wrote and well,  
 
and you find the same people on Twitter  
 
and then everyone is nuts on Twitter, whatever their reputation, right? Really is, you know, or should have been.  
 
Well, you could just see their, their bias, like they're not hiding it on Twitter and then they hide it when they're in there. journalistic frame.


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'''Sam:'''        00:12:50      Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias, a irresponsible, essentially it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things. You're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion. Well, I agree with that. Although I would say you and I are very split on this, so just put a placeholder. Maybe we'll get back to it. Maybe not that I'm
'''Sam:'''        00:12:50      Well, I would argue that, you know, I'm, I'm fairly forgiving on that point because I feel that Trump has made the hiding of one's so-called bias, a irresponsible, essentially it's like you, you can't, you can't pretend that this is a normal president doing normal things. You're going to be a normal journalist without an opinion. Well, I agree with that. Although I would say you and I are very split on this, so put a placeholder. Maybe we'll get back to it. Maybe not that I'm
More worried about the loss of things like nature and science than I am the New York times. I'm now worried that there is nothing, and even in the hard sciences almost that can stand up to the onslaught of political pressure creeping in to everything that has to be able to say no, that we've lost the ability to tell people to screw off if they're wrong.
 
'''Sam:'''        00:13:49      Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time.
 
'''Eric:'''    00:13:57    yeag  Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of it in roads
  There. And so  I find the loss of, of nature and sell in the universities terrifying differently from the New York times. Like this is, this is a few layers, a deeper and more dangerous. Do you not perceive taht
 
'''Sam:'''        00:14:22        Oh, I think it's, there's just different problems. I don't know, which is more consequential. I mean, I think the I think the failure to have a fact based discussion and the incentives to avoid on I think that's just the scariest thing we have going apart from the, the tr, the true monsters of pandemic and nuclear war and things like that.
 
Well, those are now increasingly relative  With the, you know, vacs or anti-vaxxer you know, contracts, but, but there's the self refereeing. Like one of the things that's really important to have a decent discussion in my opinion is that you have to agree with what a discussion is and what constitutes an illegal move. And increasingly I feel like we're having these combat sports where we can't agree on what rules like is biting an ear part of boxing. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who's to say, well, that's an imposition of your views on mine. Who can still self adjudicate?
 
'''Sam:'''        00:15:27      Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right?  you see people try to enshrine a new set of rules that prove unworkable in some of the context, you know, or, or they, they just can't live up to them because of... It's impossible. I mean, we're now noticing, and it's been widely observed that more or less, if you wait around long enough, everyone's going to get canceled. You know, it's like the repurposing of the Warhol quote, you know, we'll all be canceled for 15 minutes at some point.
 
laughter =-=== fifteen minutes!
 
And so,  just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only (laughter) black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface.
 
That's a recurring issue.
 
So it's, it's I mean the hypocrisy is, is so delicious, but it's just, it's just the yeah, the, these, these new norms of not being honest about facts just can't scale. I mean there's people will, people will be tripped up by them and so, and it's not, so you can, we can't do a lot of harm to ourselves in the meantime or in certain,
 
'''Eric:'''    00:17:10      Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves.
 
Yeah.
 
I think that the idea, yeah. Sometimes I think about Trump as the doctor who has to break a bone that has miss been miss set in the hopes that it can finally heal properly. And this is one of the places where you are
 
'''Sam:'''        00:17:28      SYeah except he's the doctor who doesn't know which bone he hasn't hand and, and a isn't actually intending to heal you. So it's the happy accident of the doctor who happens, the mad man who happens to have a hold of the right femur and a is breaking it for the wrong reasons, but to good effect.
 
'''Eric:'''    00:17:44      Right. Or you know, is it doctor in folklore and from some non-accredited.
I'm so sorry to keep segwaying on you, but I know you have a passion for India. I remember once traveling in India and seeing somebody doctors it was actually a dentist shingle and it was say, you know Western trained dentist and in parentheses failed. But, but having, just having just made the attempt was enough to put that on the, on the shingle.
 
Oh, that's good. I mean, that does.
 
So I think you get Trump wrong, right? And it's not, I see what you see and it's maddening. It's driving me crazy. The idea of spending four more precious years of my dwindling life, talking about whatever Trump less said or tweeted or worried that I don't know what would happen if we actually had a five alarm fire in the U S that had to be handled.
 
'''Eric:'''    00:18:45      Do you think my model of his mind is wrong or my model of the consequences of, of him being in office is wrong.
 
Well, I think that you were slow to give him his due. I mean, of course, as you know, I wrote this essay on kayfabe, um, anticipating that professional wrestling was going to turn out to be incredibly important. And in fact, I thought it was going to determine the presidency that was a a belief I had that understanding how lies play within the mind and how hypocrisy work and then a concept called namespaces out of Python programming and the like how we compartmentalize led me to believe that in essence we were, I had seen these other candidacies and other countries in which people seem not to be able to distinguish an actor from the character that they played, you know, whatnot.
And so I, I believed that the system of laws within professional wrestling told us what was possible. And Trump actually sort of came out of the WWE through his association with, with the McMahon family.
 
Yep
 
And I believe that he actually understood deep things that psychology departments will wake up to 20 years from now.
 
Yeah, I guess, let me just suggest I've suggested by analogy to the Chauncey Gardner factor, the evil Chauncey Gardner effect.
 
Well, but that's wrong.
 
Yeah, I think, I think, but it's hard to know that could happen. I mean, it's, it's definitely falsifiable. My theory is falsifiable. He could prove to me with a string of utterances that he's the evil genius that I haven't imagined him to be, but he hasn't done that.
 
If you and I had a couple of old Fashioneds between us and we sat down with a a thousand of his tweets, we could figure out that they're recurrent structures and we could write an Eliza program to generate them to, to tangle Democrats. I think that there's much more method to the madness. And I, I don't have to go full
Scott Adams. Scott, I know you're out there somewhere to, to say that everything is intentional and brilliant. I just think he's got a S, you know, it was for years. I said that if you wanted to win an election against a Democrat, you just would talk about the nuclear family, let them correct you to nuclear, and then you'd win because you've come across as an ass.


'''Eric:'''    00:13:23      More worried about the loss of things like nature and science than I am the New York times. I'm now worried that there is nothing, and even in the hard sciences almost that can stand up to the onslaught of political pressure creeping in to everything that has to be able to say no, that we've lost the ability to tell people to screw off if they're wrong.  
Right, exactly.  


'''Sam:'''         00:13:49      Well it's certainly been creeping up on us in the life sciences. It's been true of the social sciences for a very long time.
So I think that there is a certain amount of method that you were slow to give, give him credit for. But I think you're probably inching towards the idea that if he's not an evil genius, he has some evil genius.
 
I th I think it's just, again, I, I'm enamored of my Chauncey Gardner analogy. All right, well here's another analogy that that is even simpler and a more easy, easier to confirm. It's clear there's a method, but I think it's just a very simple method that the power of which is an accident of the context.
So it's like an Instagram model has a method, right? You know, they just, if you have a great body, show it to great effect on your Instagram channel and then wait around for people to follow you. Right? So there's a very simple formula. There's no question it works. It's, there's not a lot of method to it,


'''Eric:'''    00:13:57      Probably, you know, physics and math are going to be the last to go, but I've even seen a little bit of it in roads
but in the rallies that he likes, the rallies are a feedback mechanism,  


'''Sam:'''        00:14:03      There. And so [inaudible]
right


'''Eric:'''    00:14:07      I find the loss of, of nature and sell in the universities terrifying differently from the New York times. Like this is, this is a few layers, a deeper and more dangerous. Do you not
So he knows, he knows that the feedback that he's getting from the press in general has a constant distortion. And so by holding a rally, he can figure out to some exyt..... I mean, it's like constant AB test,


'''Sam:'''        00:14:22      Perceive that? Oh, I think it's, there's just different problems. I don't know, which is more consequential. I mean, I think the I think the failure to have a fact based discussion and the incentives to avoid one
but it doesn't have the fact that he wasn't canceled for one of his sins.


Speaker 3:          00:14:40      [Inaudible]
He was!


'''Sam:'''        00:14:40      I think that's just the scariest thing we have going apart from the, the tr, the true monsters of pandemic and nuclear war and things like that. Well, those are now increasingly relative
no, but the fact that the fact that there's enough, there are enough people to insulate... He has enough fans of this style of, of communication and, and living that he's, he's uncancelable. Right.  


'''Eric:'''    00:14:52      With the, you know, vacs or anti-vaxxer you know, contracts, but, but there's the self refereeing. Like one of the things that's really important to have a decent discussion in my opinion is that you have to agree with what a discussion is and what constitutes an illegal move. And increasingly I feel like we're having these combat sports where we can't agree on what rules like is biting an ear part of boxing. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Who's to say, well, that's an imposition of your views on mine. Who can still self adjudicate?
he's cancelled


'''Sam:'''        00:15:27      Well I think if you wait long enough, you see the failures of hypocrisy, right? Music is, you see people try to enshrine a new set of rules that prove unworkable in some of the context, you know, or, or they, they just can't live up to them because of it. It's impossible. I mean, we're now noticing, and it's been widely observed that more or less, if you wait around long enough, everyone's going to get canceled. You know, it's like the repurposing of the Warhol quote, you know, we'll all be canceled for 15 minutes at some point. And it's a, I'm always, we just, you know, just before we started this podcast, we were joking that, you know, Justin Trudeau has yet another black face photo of himself apparently appearing online. And here's, you know, one of the most woke and sanctimonious enforcers of this new norm of just political correctness you know, stretching to infinity and he's, he's got not only black face in his past, but a apparently a positive passion for blackface. That's a recurring issue. So it's, it's I mean the hypocrisy is, is so delicious, but it's just, it's just the yeah, the, these, these new norms of not being honest about facts just can't scale. I mean there's people will, people will be tripped up by them and so, and it's not, so you can, we can't do a lot of harm to ourselves in the meantime or in certain,
The fact that we have 40%, no, no. We have 40% of the American population that fundamentally does not care about any of the things I care about in him.  


'''Eric:'''    00:17:10      Well, I think we're trying to do harm to ourselves. Yeah. I think that the idea, yeah. Sometimes I think about Trump as the doctor who has to break a bone that has miss been miss set in the hopes that it can finally heal properly. And this is one of the places where you are
I disagree with this, Sam, I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be.  


'''Sam:'''        00:17:28      Sir, who doesn't know which bone he hasn't hand and, and a isn't actually intending to heal you. So it's the happy accident of the doctor who happens, the mad man who happens to have a hold of the right femur and a is breaking it for the wrong reasons, but to good effect.
Okay.  


'''Eric:'''    00:17:44      Right. Or you know, is it doctorate in folklore and from some non-accredited. I'm so sorry to keep segway on you, but I know you have a passion for India. I remember once traveling in India and seeing somebody doctors it was actually a dentist shingle and it was say, you know Western trained dentist and in parentheses failed. But, but having, just having just made the attempt was enough to put that on the, on the shingle. Oh, that's good. I mean, that does. So I think you get Trump wrong, right? And it's not, I see what you see and it's maddening. It's driving me crazy. The idea of spending four more precious years of my dwindling life, talking about whatever Trump less said or tweeted or worried that I don't know what would happen if we actually had a five alarm fire in the U S that had to be handled.
I'm happy to be wrong to you. So you think that at what point, are we wrong


'''Eric:'''    00:18:45      Do you think my model of his mind is wrong or my model of the consequences of, of him being in office is wrong. Well, I think that you were slow to give him his due. I mean, of course, as you know, I wrote this essay on kayfabe. I'm anticipating that professional wrestling was going to turn out to be incredibly important. And in fact, I thought it was going to determine the presidency that was a a belief I had that understanding how lies play within the mind and how hypocrisy works. And then a concept called namespaces that have Python programming and the like how we compartmentalize led me to believe that in essence we were, I had seen these other candidacies and other countries in which people seem not to be able to distinguish an actor from the character that they played, you know, whatnot.
I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at bill Clintonism.  


'''Eric:'''    00:19:40      And so I, I believed that the system of laws within professional wrestling told us what was possible. And Trump actually sort of came out of the WWE through his association with, with the McMahon family. And I believe that he actually understood deep things that psychology departments will wake up to 20 years from now. Yeah, I guess, let me just suggest I've suggested by analogy to the Chauncey Gardner factor, the evil Chauncey Gardner effect. Well, but that's wrong. Yeah, I think, I think, but it's hard to know that could happen. I mean, it's, it's definitely falsifiable. My theory is falsifiable. He could prove to me with a string of utterances that he's the evil genius that I haven't imagined him to be, but he hasn't done that. If you and I had a couple of old Fashioneds between us and we sat down with a a thousand of his tweets, we could figure out that they're recurrent structures and we could write an Eliza program to generate them to, to tangle Democrats. I think that there's much more method to the madness. And I, I don't have to go full
Yeah.  


'''Sam:'''        00:20:48      Scott Adams. Scott, I know you're out there somewhere to, to say that everything is intentional and brilliant. I just think he's got a S, you know, it was for years. I said that if you wanted to win an election against a Democrat, you just would talk about the nuclear family, let them correct you to nuclear, and then you'd win because you've come across as an ass. Right, exactly. So I think that there is a certain amount of method that you were slow to give, give him credit for. But I think you're probably inching towards the idea that if he's not an evil genius, he has some evil genius. I th I think it's just, again, I, I'm an Amert of my Chauncey Gardner analogy. All right, well here's another analogy that that is even simpler and a more easy, easier to confirm. It's clear there's a method, but I think it's just a very simple method that the power of which is an accident of the context.
That we just want to know you're not owned.
We want something that convinces us that it's not taking orders,  


'''Sam:'''        00:21:45      So it's like an Instagram model has a method, right? You know, they just, if you have a great body, show it to great effect on your Instagram channel and then wait around for people to follow you. Right? So there's a very simple formula. There's no question it works. It's, there's not a lot of method to it, but in the rallies that he likes, the rallies are a feedback mechanism, right? So he knows, he knows that the feedback that he's getting from the press in general has a constant distortion. And so by holding a rally, he can figure out to something. I mean, it's like constant AB test, but it doesn't have the fact that he wasn't canceled for one of his sins. He was, no, but the fact that the fact that there's enough, there are enough people to insulin. He has enough fans of this style of, of communication and, and living that he's, he's on cancelable. Right. The fact that we have 40%, no, no. We have 40% of the American population that fundamentally does not care about any of the things I care about in him. I disagree with this, Sam, I think you're getting this wrong. This is what I think might be interesting. I'm happy to be. Okay. I'm happy to be wrong to you. So you think that at what point, I think we're still in the stage of being so angry at bill Clintonism. Yeah. That we just want to know you're not owned.
well but we're completely insouciant on the piont of you potentially being owned by the Russians. When that begins to get leaked.  


'''Sam:'''        00:23:17      We want something that convinces us that it's not taking orders, but we're completely insufficient on the point of UBI potentially being owned by the Russians. When that begins to get leaked. Believe me, I think about this. I don't know. I ha I haven't followed all the details. It's possible he's compromised and under direct control. Well let's just bracket that. We don't, let's say we don't know. But when that begins to become a story
Believe me, I think about this. I don't know. I ha I haven't followed all the details. It's possible he's compromised and under direct control.  


'''Eric:'''    00:23:46      And incredible story the zero interest from the people who are worried about him being owned by the D usual, you don't carry the same anger and passion that I do for getting rid of the rot that was the American center. In other words, I believe one of the things that I find very confusing is, is that you and I think would normally have been called centers, right? But we're not crypt. We're not klepto centrists. I mean, I've never been in a position to you know, to loot the treasury from the position of being a centrist. Right? So the interesting thing about the center is that the center produces the, the blank canvas of America on which we get to paint. So I'm not really super excited to get a politician that makes me Swoon. I want somebody to, to just, just so a canvas so that we can build all of the, you know, companies and nonprofits and do all the beautiful work that makes this country amazing.
Well let's just bracket that. We don't, let's say we don't know. But when that begins to become a story
nd incredible story the zero interest from the people who are worried about him being owned by the D usual,


'''Eric:'''    00:24:43      I'm not trying to get my entertainment from government, the thing that crept in to our system with Reagan and Bush giving way to the Clintons back to Bush. And then bizarrely I thought Obama was going to be a break from this. That thing induces a passion in some of us to get rid of it. We hate it and I don't know that you carry that passion and so I think it's harder for you to understand it and I carry it not from a right wing perspective. I carry it from a progressive dissenter. Left position.
you don't carry the same anger and passion that I do for getting rid of the rot that was the American center. In other words, I believe one of the things that I find very confusing is, is that you and I think would normally have been called centers, right? But we're not crypt. We're not klepto centrists. I mean, I've never been in a position to you know, to loot the treasury from the position of being a centrist. Right? So the interesting thing about the center is that the center produces the, the blank canvas of America on which we get to paint. So I'm not really super excited to get a politician that makes me Swoon. I want somebody to, gesso a canvas so that we can build all of the, you know, companies and nonprofits and do all the beautiful work that makes this country amazing.
I'm not trying to get my entertainment from government, the thing that crept in to our system with Reagan and Bush giving way to the Clintons back to Bush. And then bizarrely I thought Obama was going to be a break from this. That thing induces a passion in some of us to get rid of it. We hate it and I don't know that you carry that passion and so I think it's harder for you to understand it and I carry it not from a right wing perspective. I carry it from a progressive dissenter. Left position.


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'''Eric:'''    00:25:22      Next up is returning sponsor express VPN. Now I'm pretty thrilled with express VPN because I'm actually using it in my personal life as it happens. I'm recording this ad in a hotel room in New York city and I find this to be a very reliable way to make sure my network data is secure and I don't even have to think about it. If you ever use wifi at a hotel or shopping while you probably feel somewhat insecure because you're sending your data over and open network and that means no encryption at all and perhaps the best way of making sure that your data is safe is to be using a VPN and express VPN is one of the best. All you need to do is to download express VPN as an app onto your computer or smartphone and then you can use the internet just as you normally would.
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'''Eric:'''    00:26:56      For example, I've recently realized I need to up my game for graphic design. However, I don't even know how to speak the language of graphic design, so when I want to interview somebody who might do work for me, I would really like to have some idea of what it is that they're doing so I'm not in a one down position. I think that in general, you'll find that Skillshare has something for you with respect to any practical need. Join the millions of students already learning on Skillshare today with a special offer. Just for our listeners, you can get two months of Skillshare for free. That's right. Skillshare is offering listeners to the portal two months of unlimited access to thousands of classes for free. How do you get it? You just go to skillshare.com/portal if you go to skillshare.com/portal you can start your two months right now and you can set an alert for 55 days in so that if you're not completely satisfied, you can cancel without any cost to you. It's a no lose proposition. That's skillshare.com/portal
'''Eric:'''    00:26:56      For example, I've recently realized I need to up my game for graphic design. However, I don't even know how to speak the language of graphic design, so when I want to interview somebody who might do work for me, I would really like to have some idea of what it is that they're doing so I'm not in a one down position. I think that in general, you'll find that Skillshare has something for you with respect to any practical need. Join the millions of students already learning on Skillshare today with a special offer. Just for our listeners, you can get two months of Skillshare for free. That's right. Skillshare is offering listeners to the portal two months of unlimited access to thousands of classes for free. How do you get it? You just go to skillshare.com/portal if you go to skillshare.com/portal you can start your two months right now and you can set an alert for 55 days in so that if you're not completely satisfied, you can cancel without any cost to you. It's a no lose proposition. That's skillshare.com/portal


'''Sam:'''        00:27:51      Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So I, I have that trumping module in my brain that feels just the pure shot and Freud a have seen Justin Trudeau get Holy sack cloistered on his own. Petard right? So he, he hears this sanctimonious enforcer of woke culture. Just pandering to the left. It's clearly unsustainable. It's clearly dishonest, it's and unworkable. And, you know, w w offline we spoke about just that moment where he's, he's admonishing this, this elementary school age girl when she says the word mankind, which is a, you know it's great to hear a sixth grader use a phrase toward mankind. He basis, no, we say people kind. Maybe they say people kind up in Canada. I haven't heard that. But, you know, even just saying humankind there and, and, and enforcing that, that taboo, there was just, that's the elite TISM the goofy elitism that, that it's not the elite TISM.
'''Sam:'''        00:27:51      Well, and some of this comes back to the hypocrisy point I was making before. So I, I have that trumpian module in my brain that feels just the pure scheudeng a have seen Justin Trudeau get Holy sack cloistered on his own. Petard right? So he, he hears this sanctimonious enforcer of woke culture. Just pandering to the left. It's clearly unsustainable. It's clearly dishonest, it's and unworkable. And, you know, w w offline we spoke about just that moment where he's, he's admonishing this, this elementary school age girl when she says the word mankind, which is a, you know it's great to hear a sixth grader use a phrase toward mankind. He basis, no, we say people kind. Maybe they say people kind up in Canada. I haven't heard that. But, you know, even just saying humankind there and, and, and enforcing that, that taboo, there was just, that's the elite TISM the goofy elitism that, that it's not the elite TISM.


'''Sam:'''        00:29:00      It's the fact that these people have been picking our pockets and they've been divorcing us from each other. I'm just saying, I get the, let's just watch the, these fuckers burn a stream of pleasure they can get coursing in your brain. And that, that explains a lot of the Trump phenomenon where it's just on some level, they don't care that he's the most odious liar we've ever seen. Are they being his, his fan base? They just love to see him wind up the lip tarts or they love to see Sam. I'm really trying to get at something I may be wrong, so forgive me if I'm, if I'm going off on a tangent, but I really think that there was something much more evil. It wasn't just that these people
'''Sam:'''        00:29:00      It's the fact that these people have been picking our pockets and they've been divorcing us from each other. I'm just saying, I get the, let's just watch the, these fuckers burn a stream of pleasure they can get coursing in your brain. And that, that explains a lot of the Trump phenomenon where it's just on some level, they don't care that he's the most odious liar we've ever seen. Are they being his, his fan base? They just love to see him wind up the lip tarts or they love to see Sam. I'm really trying to get at something I may be wrong, so forgive me if I'm, if I'm going off on a tangent, but I really think that there was something much more evil. It wasn't just that these people
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