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21: Ashley Mathews (aka Riley Reid) - The mogul and brains behind America's Sweetheart (view source)
Revision as of 07:33, 26 February 2020
, 07:33, 26 February 2020→Transcript
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'''Eric:''' It is a very simple observation that sex is sexy, that is almost, but not quite a tautology. Yet its implications seem, at least to me, to be quite profound and easily missed given that one could argue from first principles that sex is ultimately one of the most powerful forces shaping human society, but whenever we attempt to discuss sex directly, our autonomic nervous system becomes engaged if we're not very careful. As the comedian Tom Lehrer once said, when correctly viewed, everything is lewd. If you look hard enough, you will see that nearly every sentence has a double entendre, like that last one. As a result, when we attempt to analyze and discuss sex and sexuality using our prefrontal cortex, the conversation almost reliably goes off the rails with a probability approaching one. As our lower brains become engaged, aroused, and amused, it's almost designed not to be discussable. | '''Eric:''' It is a very simple observation that sex is sexy, that is almost, but not quite a tautology. Yet its implications seem, at least to me, to be quite profound and easily missed given that one could argue from first principles that sex is ultimately one of the most powerful forces shaping human society, but whenever we attempt to discuss sex directly, our autonomic nervous system becomes engaged if we're not very careful. As the comedian Tom Lehrer once said, when correctly viewed, everything is lewd. If you look hard enough, you will see that nearly every sentence has a double entendre, like that last one. As a result, when we attempt to analyze and discuss sex and sexuality using our prefrontal cortex, the conversation almost reliably goes off the rails with a probability approaching one. As our lower brains become engaged, aroused, and amused, it's almost designed not to be discussable. | ||
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'''Eric:''' Hello, you found the portal. I'm your host, Eric Weinstein. I'm here in studio with a special guest today, Ashley Matthews. Ashley, thanks for coming by The Portal. | '''Eric:''' Hello, you found the portal. I'm your host, Eric Weinstein. I'm here in studio with a special guest today, Ashley Matthews. Ashley, thanks for coming by The Portal. | ||
'''Ashley:''' Thank you for having me. | |||
'''Eric:''' Now, it's an unusual episode of The Portal because, the way I see it, you are Ashley Matthews, but you've created a character who's an actress named Riley Reid who portrays a series of characters in erotic films and shorts. So you have a successful business, you're a successful business woman and I came to know about your existence through sort of a kind of an odd chain of events, which is that when I did one of my first large live shows with Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro at the Masonic in San Francisco, I believe that you were tweeting about how excited you were to attend the event. And people said, wow, Riley Reid is going to your event. And I said, who's Riley Reed? And people thought, wow, you really don't know. This is a, an incredibly famous erotic actress who is apparently very interested in rationality, psychedelics, sexuality and sort of understanding where our country is going from an unusual viewpoint. So you were at that show? | '''Eric:''' Now, it's an unusual episode of The Portal because, the way I see it, you are Ashley Matthews, but you've created a character who's an actress named Riley Reid who portrays a series of characters in erotic films and shorts. So you have a successful business, you're a successful business woman and I came to know about your existence through sort of a kind of an odd chain of events, which is that when I did one of my first large live shows with Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro at the Masonic in San Francisco, I believe that you were tweeting about how excited you were to attend the event. And people said, wow, Riley Reid is going to your event. And I said, who's Riley Reed? And people thought, wow, you really don't know. This is a, an incredibly famous erotic actress who is apparently very interested in rationality, psychedelics, sexuality and sort of understanding where our country is going from an unusual viewpoint. So you were at that show? | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yes, I was. | |||
'''Eric:''' How did that impress you? | '''Eric:''' How did that impress you? | ||
00:06 | 00:06 | ||
'''Ashley:''' I, to be honest, wanted there to be more conversation about like all the things, I mean, Sam Harris talks about it all, like the free will and this and the, that type of thing. But I think it was a lot of politic type things. Kind of Ben Shapiro and him kind of talking a lot back and forth. I didn't really get to hear much from you yet. | |||
'''Eric:''' Well, I tried to stay out of when they were trying to get into, Is there a God is there no, God, I figured that it's like the Sharks and the Jets or Bloods and the Crips. You don't want to get in the middle of it. Right. | '''Eric:''' Well, I tried to stay out of when they were trying to get into, Is there a God is there no, God, I figured that it's like the Sharks and the Jets or Bloods and the Crips. You don't want to get in the middle of it. Right. | ||
'''Ashley:''' But nonetheless it was, I loved it. It was great. | |||
'''Eric:''' Now, what drew you initially to that world of Sam Harris and his constellation of issues? | '''Eric:''' Now, what drew you initially to that world of Sam Harris and his constellation of issues? | ||
'''Ashley:''' The first time I listened to him, a friend of mine recommended one of his podcasts about social media and kind of the, what is it, like how it manipulates you? The manipulation in social media and social media is such a huge part of my life and my job that I thought it was really important for me to take a look and understand it deeper in a way that I've never really even visualized it or even noticed what was going on in the social media world. And so, because I work in it, we kind of all now work in it. I thought it was kind of like a duty to know exactly what we're all doing and kind of like helping influence. So when I first heard that podcast, I was really intrigued by it and thought that it was, I thought that Sam was like so well spoken and it was very interesting and I wanted to look more into his work and whatnot. I listened to a few more of his podcasts and learn about his fight against religion and his perspectives on freewill, which were things that I've never even heard of before. And I grew up religious myself, so to be able to listen to an atheist talk about all of these things that I kind of always felt within myself without ever actually expressing it. I thought it was really interesting and beautiful and I felt like I was like, Oh, here's like somewhere I can relate and things that I feel to be within me, but never actually expressed or found, I guess my following or fellow peers that I could speak to about this. So yeah, I was very, very interested in everything he had to say. And I'm an active listener on his podcasts. | |||
00:08 | 00:08 | ||
'''Eric:''' Are you— would you self-describe as an atheist, if that's an appropriate question? | '''Eric:''' Are you— would you self-describe as an atheist, if that's an appropriate question? | ||
'''Ashley:''' I would say so. I didn't think that at the time that I was, but now kind of learning more of what it is expressed to be. I would consider myself an atheist. Yes. | |||
'''Eric:''' Interesting. Now the way in which you sort of cropped up in my life a second time was that I started looking into the aftermath of something I had known nothing about, which was called Operation Choke Point. And this had been initiated under the Obama administration, if I understand it correctly, where the FDIC and perhaps the Justice Department came to realize that they could put a lot of pressure on the financial system not to do business with people in certain sectors of the economy or to make it very difficult for them to get any access to regular financial institutions. And I recall an article or an interview, maybe it was in a paper, I can't remember where it was, where you were talking about the fact that you couldn't get normal credit and easy access to commercial banking despite the fact that you were running a very successful and profitable business as a business woman. | '''Eric:''' Interesting. Now the way in which you sort of cropped up in my life a second time was that I started looking into the aftermath of something I had known nothing about, which was called Operation Choke Point. And this had been initiated under the Obama administration, if I understand it correctly, where the FDIC and perhaps the Justice Department came to realize that they could put a lot of pressure on the financial system not to do business with people in certain sectors of the economy or to make it very difficult for them to get any access to regular financial institutions. And I recall an article or an interview, maybe it was in a paper, I can't remember where it was, where you were talking about the fact that you couldn't get normal credit and easy access to commercial banking despite the fact that you were running a very successful and profitable business as a business woman. | ||
00:10 | 00:10 | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah. There was a lot of adult actresses and directors and whatnot. People who have had their accounts shut down in banking institutions and things like that. I have had simple things where like email servers where you can kind of like send blast emails to your subscribers and whatnot kind of reject me in being able to be able to use them. Like MailChimp was one of the programs where I wasn't able to use it. And there's like many, many more. When I was like building my website, I was trying to like build my website from kind of like third parties, not trying to follow the standard adult website brands, because I felt like they took a large percentage of our money. So I was like, what other avenues can I attract that can work with me? And I was searching for months and months to find someone to like a simple to hold my bandwidth and whatnot. And it was really difficult. And I ended up having to speak to like specific owners and reach out directly to be able to be like, listen, this is who I am. This is what I want. Would you be willing to work with me? And now through that I've, I work with certain companies that where I'm like one of their biggest clients. And I think they work with a lot of sports networking and this and that. And still my adult website is there. I'm like their number one client. And so I feel very fortunate that they would take me on. But it took a lot of research and a lot of emails being sent out to people to be able to be like, listen, I am not a criminal. I'm not a bad guy. Like, you know, I understand that there are things that make the adult industry complicated because they have to make sure people are 18 and older and they don't want to be, you know, giving access to people who are not of the age. And how do you find that they are 18 and all of the written regulations? So I understand that there are those kinds of rules that take place that make it a little bit more tricky. | |||
00:12 | 00:12 | ||
'''Eric:''' Those are the parts that you accept, that is, I mean, if I refer to you as a commercial sex worker, you're comfortable with the designation? | '''Eric:''' Those are the parts that you accept, that is, I mean, if I refer to you as a commercial sex worker, you're comfortable with the designation? | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yes. | |||
'''Eric:''' All right. So as a CSW, you accept that there are some added requirements for doing this kind of work so that it is legit and above board. | '''Eric:''' All right. So as a CSW, you accept that there are some added requirements for doing this kind of work so that it is legit and above board. | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yes, of course. And so I think that the problem is that so many companies just don't even want to take the risk. That makes it a bit more of a struggle for us to try and find legitimate businesses that want to do business with us, even though I think that they're missing out on a huge market by not doing it. And I'm very curious as to some of the reasons why they even don't do it. It's maybe politically and religion has something to do with it, I'm sure. | |||
'''Eric''' (advertisement): Returning sponsor athletic greens makes a terrific daily, all-in-one health drink, and they've asked me to give a personal and honest account of how I actually use their product. Here it goes. Now the ad copy is correct. They say that they have 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, including prebiotics, probiotics, digestive enzymes, adaptogens, superfoods, and more. What they don't say in the ad copy is that it appears to have an undocumented feature. I feel much less hungry when I mix up one of their drinks and I drink it in the morning, and I don't feel hungry usually until about three o'clock in the afternoon, that means I've started noticing weight loss that I wasn't expecting on the scale. I don't know if everybody has this reaction, but it's absolutely a benefit that I hadn't expected. And even though it's not my absolute favorite drink, it's quite tasty and it makes me feel virtuous immediately after I've drunk it. Okay. Go to athletic greens.com/portal to claim our special offer today. That's 20 free travel packs of the powder valued at $79 with your first purchase. That's athletic greens.com/portal. You'll feel healthier and I think you'll get better nutrition, athletic greens.com/portal. Returning sponsor Blinkist to solve an important problem for book people in the year 2020. Your attention has been microchunked by Twitter and it therefore trades at a premium. On the other hand, great books like Sapiens by Yuval Harari come out all the time and weigh in at perhaps 440 pages. Is it worth the investment? That's the question. Well, Blinkist has a team of expert readers and writers who summarize the main points of a book to figure out whether you should be investing in that book or another. That means you get a 15 minute synopsis either in written or audio form that allows you to make the decision where to invest your attention. It's a great product. With Blinkist, you get unlimited access to read or listen to a massive library of condensed nonfiction books. All the books you want for only one low price. Right now, for a limited time, Blinkist has a special offer for our audience. Go to blinkist.com/portal and try it free for seven days. That's Blinkist, spelled B, L, I, N, K, I, S T, blinkist.com/portal to start your free seven day trial. You'll also save 25% off, but only when you sign up at blinkist.com/portal | '''Eric''' (advertisement): Returning sponsor athletic greens makes a terrific daily, all-in-one health drink, and they've asked me to give a personal and honest account of how I actually use their product. Here it goes. Now the ad copy is correct. They say that they have 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients, including prebiotics, probiotics, digestive enzymes, adaptogens, superfoods, and more. What they don't say in the ad copy is that it appears to have an undocumented feature. I feel much less hungry when I mix up one of their drinks and I drink it in the morning, and I don't feel hungry usually until about three o'clock in the afternoon, that means I've started noticing weight loss that I wasn't expecting on the scale. I don't know if everybody has this reaction, but it's absolutely a benefit that I hadn't expected. And even though it's not my absolute favorite drink, it's quite tasty and it makes me feel virtuous immediately after I've drunk it. Okay. Go to athletic greens.com/portal to claim our special offer today. That's 20 free travel packs of the powder valued at $79 with your first purchase. That's athletic greens.com/portal. You'll feel healthier and I think you'll get better nutrition, athletic greens.com/portal. Returning sponsor Blinkist to solve an important problem for book people in the year 2020. Your attention has been microchunked by Twitter and it therefore trades at a premium. On the other hand, great books like Sapiens by Yuval Harari come out all the time and weigh in at perhaps 440 pages. Is it worth the investment? That's the question. Well, Blinkist has a team of expert readers and writers who summarize the main points of a book to figure out whether you should be investing in that book or another. That means you get a 15 minute synopsis either in written or audio form that allows you to make the decision where to invest your attention. It's a great product. With Blinkist, you get unlimited access to read or listen to a massive library of condensed nonfiction books. All the books you want for only one low price. Right now, for a limited time, Blinkist has a special offer for our audience. Go to blinkist.com/portal and try it free for seven days. That's Blinkist, spelled B, L, I, N, K, I, S T, blinkist.com/portal to start your free seven day trial. You'll also save 25% off, but only when you sign up at blinkist.com/portal | ||
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00:16 | 00:16 | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah, I would say so. I definitely think that to some extent it's somewhat there and I don't know if it's just into different degrees where it's like gay rights or things like that, but definitely nothing really that is necessarily adult related in our, you know, XXX community. | |||
'''Eric:''' So one person that you've worked with who has caught my attention on a number of occasions is this man, John Stagliano. And John Stagliano is famous for first porting the concept of Gonzo, which was originally popularized by Hunter S Thompson and journalism into porn. That is, he abstracted it away from journalism and started bringing it into pornography in the sense that he was using handheld cameras, he was making use of the switch to VHS from film, and one of the things that he was doing, if I understand correctly, and you should feel free to correct, is that he was showing females enjoying sexuality rather than being spied upon by the lens, actually actively engaged for their own pleasure. And that this was in some weird way a feminist upturning of the concept of pornography. Do I have my facts even vaguely correct? | '''Eric:''' So one person that you've worked with who has caught my attention on a number of occasions is this man, John Stagliano. And John Stagliano is famous for first porting the concept of Gonzo, which was originally popularized by Hunter S Thompson and journalism into porn. That is, he abstracted it away from journalism and started bringing it into pornography in the sense that he was using handheld cameras, he was making use of the switch to VHS from film, and one of the things that he was doing, if I understand correctly, and you should feel free to correct, is that he was showing females enjoying sexuality rather than being spied upon by the lens, actually actively engaged for their own pleasure. And that this was in some weird way a feminist upturning of the concept of pornography. Do I have my facts even vaguely correct? | ||
00:17 | 00:17 | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. | |||
'''Eric:''' So then John weirdly ran afoul of federal prosecutors having to do with the 1973 standard, which needs to be more in all of our consciousness called Miller v. California. Is Miller v. California something that occupies your thoughts? | '''Eric:''' So then John weirdly ran afoul of federal prosecutors having to do with the 1973 standard, which needs to be more in all of our consciousness called Miller v. California. Is Miller v. California something that occupies your thoughts? | ||
'''Ashley:''' No | |||
'''Eric:''' Do you know about it? | '''Eric:''' Do you know about it? | ||
'''Ashley:''' No | |||
'''Eric:''' Oh boy. Okay. I'm not a legal expert, but this is, I think this is still the governing case law. There was originally, it's– I guess you can't check me, but see if this even plays correctly. My understanding is that in 1957, there was a decision called Roth v. United States, which introduced the idea that an average person applying contemporary community standards, whatever that means, would have to find obscene work to be in the prurient interest, that it arouses passions and maybe makes us lascivious. Right? And that was followed in the mid sixties by 1966 something called Memoirs v. Massachusetts, which was a much more liberal standard, which said that the work in question had to lack all redeeming social importance. And therefore, if you could just put one quotation from Shakespeare somewhere in your work, you were almost certainly going to be safe because anything that was redeeming, would keep something from being deemed obscene. And then the court revisits in 1973 and comes up with a three-pronged approach. And it says that somebody's applying contemporary community standards has to find the work to be in the whole and in the prurient interest of sex, that it has to run a foul of offensive standards, I think on the state books. And, lastly, it has to be seriously lacking in redeeming scientific, literary, political or social importance. So, not totally lacking; it just has to be fairly lacking. That is terrifying in the age of the internet, because what is a contemporary community standard when we have one giant community? If you make porn in the San Fernando Valley, let's say, where its traditional headquarters has been, what if it gets viewed in Ogden, Utah? How do you know you're not violating somebody else's community standard? Are you worried about this at all? | '''Eric:''' Oh boy. Okay. I'm not a legal expert, but this is, I think this is still the governing case law. There was originally, it's– I guess you can't check me, but see if this even plays correctly. My understanding is that in 1957, there was a decision called Roth v. United States, which introduced the idea that an average person applying contemporary community standards, whatever that means, would have to find obscene work to be in the prurient interest, that it arouses passions and maybe makes us lascivious. Right? And that was followed in the mid sixties by 1966 something called Memoirs v. Massachusetts, which was a much more liberal standard, which said that the work in question had to lack all redeeming social importance. And therefore, if you could just put one quotation from Shakespeare somewhere in your work, you were almost certainly going to be safe because anything that was redeeming, would keep something from being deemed obscene. And then the court revisits in 1973 and comes up with a three-pronged approach. And it says that somebody's applying contemporary community standards has to find the work to be in the whole and in the prurient interest of sex, that it has to run a foul of offensive standards, I think on the state books. And, lastly, it has to be seriously lacking in redeeming scientific, literary, political or social importance. So, not totally lacking; it just has to be fairly lacking. That is terrifying in the age of the internet, because what is a contemporary community standard when we have one giant community? If you make porn in the San Fernando Valley, let's say, where its traditional headquarters has been, what if it gets viewed in Ogden, Utah? How do you know you're not violating somebody else's community standard? Are you worried about this at all? | ||
'''Ashley:''' Oh, I'm definitely, I mean the, to me it's like, it's very extreme because what one perspective is to one person is totally different to another. Your life experiences, I mean, are going to be completely different. You're even like, you know, religion has a huge play in all of these types of things and I think that a lot of people just have totally different ideas on what is okay and not okay. And I think a lot of it is even just from lack of experience or perspective or communication with different people. So I think that some people will even like, like many even of my own friends have totally different views on pornography and actors and actresses in the adult entertainment industry. And once they meet them, they're like, wow, I didn't even think that you guys would even, you know, be this type of person. I've had people who like speak to me directly where they're like, I didn't like you until I listened to a podcast where I was like, Oh, she's like a real human being. So I think that in general it's really daunting and terrifying. The fact that I, if I want to do some really intense hardcore scene that to maybe the general public will think it's, you know, you know, regular hot porno, you know, but then the, there might be, you know, 5% of the population who's like, Oh my God, what did she just do? | |||
'''Eric:''' Well, and that's just it. There's no way that you can control where your material will be consumed. So having a pre-internet, like almost 50 years old, decision govern, in part, who can be brought up on federal charges. My understanding was that Stagliano, about 10 years ago was brought up, and was possibly facing three decades in prison for making pornography. | '''Eric:''' Well, and that's just it. There's no way that you can control where your material will be consumed. So having a pre-internet, like almost 50 years old, decision govern, in part, who can be brought up on federal charges. My understanding was that Stagliano, about 10 years ago was brought up, and was possibly facing three decades in prison for making pornography. | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah. | |||
'''Eric:''' You're like 28, if that would, that would put you at nearly 60 years old before you got out. | '''Eric:''' You're like 28, if that would, that would put you at nearly 60 years old before you got out. | ||
00:22 | 00:22 | ||
'''Ashley:''' Oh yeah. | |||
'''Eric:''' So what, what are your thoughts on this? What do we do? If we, I mean, look, as you probably know, we've been talking about free speech issues in this Intellectual Dark Web group, for example, and a lot of the problems that we're finding are not exactly free speech issues. It's not really the government that's trying to shut you down, but instead, it's sort of the informal, the institutions of civil society like newspapers and universities that have suddenly come up with a new concept, which is hate speech and even simple biological reasoning is sometimes now considered hate speech. Do you see any tie in between the erotic community and potentially even the scientific community and the ways in which these amorphous standards might get invoked? | '''Eric:''' So what, what are your thoughts on this? What do we do? If we, I mean, look, as you probably know, we've been talking about free speech issues in this Intellectual Dark Web group, for example, and a lot of the problems that we're finding are not exactly free speech issues. It's not really the government that's trying to shut you down, but instead, it's sort of the informal, the institutions of civil society like newspapers and universities that have suddenly come up with a new concept, which is hate speech and even simple biological reasoning is sometimes now considered hate speech. Do you see any tie in between the erotic community and potentially even the scientific community and the ways in which these amorphous standards might get invoked? | ||
'''Ashley:''' I mean, I could hope that there is some sort of way that we can change these types of laws or perspectives and whatnot. I'm not exactly sure what it would take. I don't know if there's going to be like some sort of new television series that kind of lights people up in a different way that now people can have a perspective where they look at us as like humans and they humanize us. I think that's a huge part of it is not, we're not given the opportunity to humanize ourselves. And I would be really curious to see what it would have to be like if, you know, do we have to all become scientists so that we get the check of a seal of approval? | |||
00:23 | 00:23 | ||
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00:24 | 00:24 | ||
'''Ashley:''' When it comes to like I, I know like right now I'm working on this documentary and they're following myself as an adult actress and they're also following a researcher who studies sex, and she speaks about how she gets like death threats and things like that for being this like almost highly sexual woman even though she's literally studying like how vaginal secretion happens or things like that. And I think that it is like we have this lack of free speech and we have this like, I don't know if it's also the era of where everyone is just highly offended by everything as well. I would have thought that through with social media and all of these things and even like music, the way that music has kind of like even become more hypersexual and aggressive, that our culture would be more accepting to these types of, you know, ways of life. Whereas rather than kind of see the opposite side of it, I, I think that like when it comes to being able to be free with what you can do and say in sex work and researchers, I'm not too familiar with the researchers, but I was definitely like, I thought of this book Bunk by Mary Roach when I heard about the research study of this, the researcher in the documentary where it talks about like, I think it was like in the 50s or something like that where they were all studying animals, having sex with animals because it was so taboo and you were like a pervert if you watched two humans have sex, even though that's the only way to actually study people having sex and to get real information. You're not going to get, you'll get information about monkeys if you're watching monkeys have sex. But it was like interesting to me that it was so almost pornographic for them to even be able to watch people and study them. Even though that's how we're trying to understand biology and science. | |||
00:26 | 00:26 | ||
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00:29 | 00:29 | ||
'''Ashley:''' I would say so. I, I believe one time when we spoke previously you mentioned to me, I could be quoting you wrong, but the real estate effect or something like that, where it was like the woman can sell you potentially a not a suitable home because of her sex appeal and where she is dressed in a nice suit. Maybe there's a little cleavage showing, she has the makeup done, and you, as a general person is kind of, you know, you're, you're in a daze because you, you see this woman almost before you see the household. And I think that with adult entertainers we kind of like are always so sexually driven and sex is everywhere. It's our whole lives. I feel like I even personally experienced less sexual tension when I'm on set because we are always naked. They are so used to seeing naked women that it's not even like, it's not even a statement or a question or anything like that. | |||
00:30 | 00:30 | ||
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00:31 | 00:31 | ||
'''Ashley:''' I can even just say like even the feeling and the difference of like how I'm working on this documentary right now, when I'm onset with that documentary, it is so different than when I'm typically onset. And it's hard for my brain to almost wrap around it because it's very similar vibe. They're both sets. We have like same kind of production crews and me, I would naturally change my clothing right here in the middle of the set and all of these things, and not even think about, you know, the guy on the sound, he's doing his job, he's looking at the things, cause he doesn't care about me getting nude because that's what he always, every day there's a new girl and a guy getting nude. And when I was on the documentary they were kind of like, Oh no, like, go to your dressing room and change. And as if, and I didn't even think that I could be potentially offending them with my body and whatnot by just undressing, dressing right there. Cause I was like, Oh you want me to change so I'll, I'll just change right now. I'm like totally comfortable with myself. And it didn't even cross my mind that like, Oh maybe this guy is looking at me inappropriately and he has like a wife or this or that or they don't want any set drama or anything like that. And so for me it's very bizarre to pull myself out of my world that is so normal for us to just be like casually having sex, like when the cameras aren't rolling to just maintain the energy, maintain the flow you, we want to make sure the male talent, how you know, stays erect and everything like that. And so while they're changing lights and everything like that, it's so casual for sex to be going on. It's so casual for the male to male– there’s even like a lot of male to male, you know, gay jokes within each other where you know, they'll, they'll joke about like, you know, teasing each other off and like doing all of these fun, playful things. Whereas maybe in the regular work environment you would never male to male be flirting with your, you know, coworkers even in the slightest bit because one, you don't want to become like, I dunno, you don't want all of that. Some guys are so homophobic and whatnot, but in our industry it's so casual for everyone to kind of have this open love for one another and talk about their bodies and their sexuality, that, when I was on this documentary set, it was so bizarrely uncomfortable for me as the sex worker to remove myself from being who I naturally am, which is like just comfortable within myself and my sexuality and my body and that I could be looked at as a piece of meat on their set. So they're like, these men aren't used to seeing women like this all the time. So you have to make sure that you're not subjecting yourself in this way or making them uncomfortable or whatnot. And to me, I think that like if they were around that more, if people were just comfortable with themselves and comfortable with their bodies, then it naturally would be normal and the same, and the guy would be able to adjust the lights without staring at the girl the whole time. You know, not that these guys were, but I guess potentially maybe they would, but they weren't even really given the opportunity. And for us, I think we're just so casual with one another that there, the hypersexualness that goes on on set is just, it's just another playful, casual, normal conversation. Yeah. | |||
00:35 | 00:35 | ||
'''Eric:''' So you believe, I mean, not to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious, you believe that in your workplace, bizarrely, and quite unexpectedly, maybe issues of harassment, tension, unwanted sexuality, are actually decreased? | '''Eric:''' So you believe, I mean, not to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious, you believe that in your workplace, bizarrely, and quite unexpectedly, maybe issues of harassment, tension, unwanted sexuality, are actually decreased? | ||
'''Ashley:''' I personally feel that in my experiences, 100%. Like it's, to me it's close to none. I've never felt creepy vibes from a director or anything of that. I'm also very playful and comfortable with myself and jokes and you know, I'm not, I couldn't say that for every female that she doesn't feel maybe possibly offended by certain statements. But I have never felt that there was a boundary that was crossed in our casual work with one another. I've never had any creepy director offering me things that he shouldn't be or whatnot. It's always in a very playful manner and there's always like 10 other people in the room. So it's always like a casual joke or things like that where we're all just, you know, naked and, you know, I pee with the door open. It's just like, we all kind of do, like, we're all just very comfortable with ourselves. | |||
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'''Ashley:''' I would say so to some extent, but even from me personally to some extent, I feel like even quite the opposite has happened where now I like favor and desire more the more intimate one-on-one private sex life experience where it feels more emotionally involved. And I think that's also because I'm often working with people that maybe I don't know them very well or things like that. And there is always other people around, so the level of being able to drop your guard always in completely is very rare because there is a camera involved and we're creating a product in the end. And as much as like I can be enjoying myself, I still am put into literal positions that I can't always be enjoying myself because it's opening up for a camera or things like that. | |||
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'''Eric:''' Right, well, and you're a professional after all. | '''Eric:''' Right, well, and you're a professional after all. | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yes. Yes, exactly. And so I find even for myself that it's almost taken an opposite turn where I now desire that less and less. And when I first started, that was one of my favorite things was the viewers, the voyeur aspect of there being multiple people in the room and enjoying the fact that there is a guy with a boom stick holding it up, who's, you know, trying to not look but definitely obviously wants to. | |||
'''Eric:''' Got it. Do you see any way in which, are the rest of the rest of us in society moving closer towards pornography with let's say self sexualization on Instagram, where you're sort of part of a mildly erotic feedback loop? If you're a young woman and you notice what, you know, suddenly a photo you've taken has, you know, 10 times the number of likes on it. | '''Eric:''' Got it. Do you see any way in which, are the rest of the rest of us in society moving closer towards pornography with let's say self sexualization on Instagram, where you're sort of part of a mildly erotic feedback loop? If you're a young woman and you notice what, you know, suddenly a photo you've taken has, you know, 10 times the number of likes on it. | ||
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'''Ashley:''' I would say social media has a huge part into doing and kind of almost making somewhat hyper-sexualized in yourself, more casual. And I think a lot of it is this desire of engagement as well as like people becoming an Instagram model or influencer so that they sell products. I know I recently listened to like a Chris D’Elia podcast where he was joking about, yes, convenience. | |||
'''Eric:''' He's amazing. Oh, he's hilarious. I love him. | '''Eric:''' He's amazing. Oh, he's hilarious. I love him. | ||
'''Ashley:''' And in his podcasts, he's making jokes about these girls who are kind of, you know, smashing their chest together, holding a watch, and they're selling a watch. But nobody is obviously looking at the watch. And it's interesting how, you know, in every kind of advertising world and median, they use sex to sell things. And so it's very normal. But now when you're taking the regular girl who's not some Vogue supermodel or it's like a Kendall Jenner where she's obviously selling sex but not selling sex cause it's perfume these other girls are kind of doing the same thing. And I think for them that they almost recognize it more so that they are selling sex because they're not getting this Vogue ad to show that it is showcasing that they're with Vogue. | |||
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'''Eric:''' And I think this is one of the difficulties that a lot of us are having is that traditionally we've always been self-deceptive about sexuality, and that the signals, I mean even biologically, just in terms of evolutionary theory, the signals that we send which constitute the sort of language of sexuality have always been cryptic. They're not sent transparently and in the clear. Maybe that's more the case inside of the world professional pornography, but in fact being deceptive and self-deceptive is what is normal. And I think one of the things that has been very confusing is this passion, partially on behalf of like the psychological community or professional sex educators, you know, be open, be explicit, talk about everything. And that's never been how sexuality has functioned in what you call the civilian world. | '''Eric:''' And I think this is one of the difficulties that a lot of us are having is that traditionally we've always been self-deceptive about sexuality, and that the signals, I mean even biologically, just in terms of evolutionary theory, the signals that we send which constitute the sort of language of sexuality have always been cryptic. They're not sent transparently and in the clear. Maybe that's more the case inside of the world professional pornography, but in fact being deceptive and self-deceptive is what is normal. And I think one of the things that has been very confusing is this passion, partially on behalf of like the psychological community or professional sex educators, you know, be open, be explicit, talk about everything. And that's never been how sexuality has functioned in what you call the civilian world. | ||
'''Ashley:''' No, sometimes I wonder if it has to do with the fact that people enjoy this taboo sense of things where it's almost like if it's unspoken, then it's more enjoyable. If it's, if it's kind of subliminal, it's, it's almost like it's sneaking its way into yourself. And, if it is kind of like less open than maybe they would have, they would have. If it wasn't, if it was direct, then maybe they would have certain other guidelines that they would have to follow, if this perfume commercial was obviously transparent with the fact that they are using sexuality to sell their perfume then maybe in the real world, the civilian world, they would be like, you can't do that. That's inappropriate. Our children see these commercials. It's on aired on television at regular waking hours. And I think that probably has something to do with the part of it where if it is not, if it is subliminal and it's not direct, then it could be more acceptable to the human eye. And it could be something that, where people are like, well, no, that's, it's a lingerie company that's like classy and pretty, even though it's obviously selling sexuality at the same time. | |||
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'''Ashley:''' Oh, well, like 100% when it comes to me. Even just like dating, I am a very transparent, open person in these aspects of where I, I don't, I don't do the whole seduction game and I kind of just am an open book and I find that a lot of times it is faulty, where, you know, a lot of people do want this type of seduction. They like these types of games or whatnot in the sense of where they, they feel like when you're, and I, I think it could be because the general public is not so honest and open with what they want, that it's like a shock value, where they're like, well, this girl is just really being completely open in general with what she enjoys. And it's often something I loop back around with my therapist where I'm like, do I need to start being like the more civilianesque type of a person, to be a more dateable person? Whereas instead of being this vulnerable self where I am just constantly myself and say what I like and what I feel in these moments and | |||
'''Eric:''' Pretty big tradeoff. | '''Eric:''' Pretty big tradeoff. | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah, it is. And I often find myself incapable of catering to the general public. I don't know how to do these all in kind of mind games on myself. But it is interesting where I do find that the most common people do enjoy this type of seduction and whatnot. They don't want things to be so blunt and almost easy to an extent. There has to be some sort of work involved and trickery. I believe that it is like a very common theme, at least even in like my dating world. It is. | |||
'''Eric:''' So one of the things that I thought was really terrific that I first heard from you with some of your ideas about how to make sure that if people are considering entering the erotic arts professionally, that they're making good decisions, that you feel that very clearly this has been a great decision for you. It's worked out financially at a great level. You've been in the business for a long time, haven't been chewed up, you seem to have an incredibly positive attitude. But what I was talking to you about was, well, you know, how uncommon is that. You're obviously in a very unusual position, and you came up with this idea of having like a virtual reality simulator of what it would be like to enter the business. Can you say more about that? | '''Eric:''' So one of the things that I thought was really terrific that I first heard from you with some of your ideas about how to make sure that if people are considering entering the erotic arts professionally, that they're making good decisions, that you feel that very clearly this has been a great decision for you. It's worked out financially at a great level. You've been in the business for a long time, haven't been chewed up, you seem to have an incredibly positive attitude. But what I was talking to you about was, well, you know, how uncommon is that. You're obviously in a very unusual position, and you came up with this idea of having like a virtual reality simulator of what it would be like to enter the business. Can you say more about that? | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yeah, I think that there are so many people, I mean you get to start the industry at age 18. And I think that there are so many people who don't necessarily start for the right reasons. Even when I first became in the industry, I was a very hypersexual adolescent. And when I began the industry, it was mostly for money. Though I started off as an extra, I wasn't partaking in these sexual acts. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. I had no idea, the concepts of it all and whatnot. And I think that now if a young male or female can get the opportunity to really grasp the sense of what can happen when he joined the industry, it would be, I think a good filter for a lot of the youth and whatnot. So I think it'd be great to have this idea of a virtual reality that allows people to put themselves inside different types of scenarios. So maybe like one scenario is you go in and you tell your parents that you've now joined the adult industry and one of the reactions are that your parents are distraught, they humiliate you, they shame you, they disown you, things of this sort. | |||
'''Eric:''' These are fairly common? | '''Eric:''' These are fairly common? | ||
'''Ashley:''' Yes. Yeah. I think a lot of people have parents who are racist. There are some parents who are like, yes you can do porn but not interracial porn and like weird things like that. And so they're making their children racist by association because maybe this child wouldn't care, you know, they would love to have sex with a person of another race, but they don't want their father or mother to disown them. So by association then listening to their parental rules and guidelines, they will not partake in interracial sex and things like that. So I think that this would be an interesting factor and I think it'd be very interesting to put the parents in these simulations as well for a youthful characters or maybe even older people who get in the industry. So maybe the parents can understand what it's like to be the adult entertainer and to have their parents be so harshly judging and aggressive and whatnot. And maybe your parents are in a religious state. You know, you could maybe fill out a little questionnaire and you're like, my dad is Christian. So like how would his Christian beliefs affect us negatively and put the father in that same, you know, virtual reality. And maybe it could also help change the parents to be more accepting. But there also are obviously the parents who will just be terrible and unaccepting. And I think there are other ways to put the future stars in the virtual reality. Whereas we had a one star, rest in peace, August Ames where yeah, she had commit suicide from what I gather, some internet bullying where she did not partake in a sex scene with a crossover star, which is a star who performs both in male to male scenes and male to female scenes. And I'm sure she struggled with other mental illness issues and things like of that sort. And I think that if we were able to put these adolescents in, or these 18 year olds, or these people, future stars in the industry, they would be able to get the experience of the humiliation, the tweets and the social media hate that you're going to get the, the ongoing, you know, struggle with dating. | |||
'''Eric:''' Ashley, but, how do you do it? I mean, it comes back, it's absolutely brutal. | '''Eric:''' Ashley, but, how do you do it? I mean, it comes back, it's absolutely brutal. | ||
'''Ashley:''' It is. But I recognize that when I, when I think about it, when I was when I was in elementary school, kids would make fun of me because I, I'm kind of like a hairy girl. I have like hairy arms and whatnot and hairy legs. So they would call me wolf woman or gorilla girl and I would just start howling like a wolf or like grunting around like a, like a monkey. And I think that I have always just personally taken criticism and made it comical. So for me, when I see someone saying some hurtful comments, I'm always like, hi, you're brilliant. Like it's, it's amazing. It's so hilarious to me. So I have a different ability into translating how negative terminology and derogatory statements towards myself that actually impacts me | |||
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