Difference between revisions of "11: Sam Harris - Fighting with Friends"

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''01:08:40''
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'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I, so clearly there is room for innovation on all these fronts and we should be eager to do it. And we should be certainly eager to find Ponzi schemes that we didn't know were Ponzi schemes. Right? Like I think it's, eh, we again, this touches where we started when we were talking about Samantha Power and other and the Southern Poverty Law Center. I think there, there are systems we set up with the best of intentions and you know, projects and, and meme, you know, mimetic complexes. We launch you know, upon the world with the best of intentions and we don't see the way incentives will align or the, or the, you know, the knock-on effects or the externalities of, of doing those things. And then it's just the world is more complicated than we realized.
'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I, so clearly there is room for innovation on all these fronts and we should be eager to do it. And we should be certainly eager to find Ponzi schemes that we didn't know were Ponzi schemes. Right? Like I think it's, we again, this touches where we started when we were talking about Samantha Power and other and the Southern Poverty Law Center. I think there are systems we set up with the best of intentions and you know, projects and, you know, mimetic complexes we launch, you know, upon the world with the best of intentions, and we don't see the way incentives will align or the knock-on effects, or the externalities of doing those things. And, I mean it's just, the world is more complicated than we realized.


''01:09:29''
''01:09:29''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' And that's what was, so that's like the thing that scares me a little bit. Remember when I said that I have malware in my head? My belief is, is that a lot of the beautiful things that you were thinking about, about being open to the world, training the best and the brightest, keeping some of them for ourselves, distributing some of them back home to grow the pie for everyone, et cetera, et cetera. That's a mimetic complex that I, I associate with malware. It's not that there aren't aspects of it, it wasn't movement, right?
'''Eric Weinstein:''' And that's what was—so that's like the thing that scares me a little bit. Remember when I said that I have malware in my head? My belief is, is that a lot of the beautiful things that you were thinking about, about being open to the world, training the best and the brightest, keeping some of them for ourselves, distributing some of them back home to grow the pie for everyone, et cetera, et cetera. That's a mimetic complex that I associate with malware. It's not that there aren't aspects of it which move me.


''01:09:54''
''01:09:54''


'''Sam Harris:''' I think it's close to the right program. So for instance, like if you say, yeah, it's, it's the fact that I'm not thinking when I say that about the I forget how you put it, but the, the, the, the difference between the local case and the imported case, right? You know, the but by analogy, you know, opening the window on the airplane. Or just the fact that you know that you've got people here who are paying taxes to help build out local infrastructure that some, then some titan of industry is going to leverage and globalize. Right? And you know that money is not coming back to the people who are paying taxes.
'''Sam Harris:''' Well but I think it's close to the right program. So for instance, like if you say—yeah, it's—the fact that I'm not thinking when I say that about the—I forget how you put it, but the difference between the local case and the imported case, right? You know, by analogy, you know, opening the window on the airplane. Or just the fact that you know that you've got people here who are paying taxes to help build out local infrastructure that then some titan of industry is going to leverage and globalize. Right? And you know that money is not coming back to the people who are paying taxes.


''01:10:38''
''01:10:38''


'''Eric Weinstein:'''           These games. The totality of these games is what got us very angry at the Clinton era. People. Yeah. This is the, the, the Brad Delong's and Paul Krugman’s and Jagdish Bhagwati's and Bill Clinton's of the world. All of these people pushed out this idea and we didn't know how to, how to oppose it. But what they were doing was allowing a slice of our country to continue to grow its slices of the pie.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Right, so these games—the totality of these games is what got us very angry at the Clinton Era people.  


''01:11:09''
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah.


'''Sam Harris:''' But again, it's, it's just easy to find non nefarious, not malignantly selfish understanding of what happened. I'll give you another example, which, which I think is you're totally familiar with but will seem less sinister or at least it seems so to me. So, you take what happened to the music industry, right? So, it's like we have a, a breakthrough in technology. We go from vinyl to CDs and then, those, you know, we, we suffer those jewel cases for about a decade and then we get PMP3s which opened the door to piracy of a sort which no one has anticipated. And then we managed to close down the piracy. We have the, you know, the iTunes store and people are but because of this, this explosion of piracy and now the prospect of, of, of just, you know, now it's all bits, it's not atoms anymore.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' This is the Brad Delong's and Paul Krugman’s and Jagdish Bhagwati's and Bill Clinton's of the world. All of these people pushed out this idea, and we didn't know how to oppose it. But what they were doing was allowing a slice of our country to continue to grow its slices of the pie.


''01:12:08''
''01:11:09''


'''Sam Harris:''' We have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product. Right? Like the music, the music, the value of the music has basically gone to zero. Right. because my, my using a copy of it is not, is not taking it from you.
'''Sam Harris:''' But again, it's just easy to find non nefarious, not malignantly selfish understanding of what happened. I'll give you another example, which I think is—you're totally familiar with but will seem less sinister or at least it seems so to me. So, you take what happened to the music industry, right? So, it's like we have a breakthrough in technology. We go from vinyl, to CDs and then, those, you know, we suffer those jewel cases for about a decade and then we get PMP3s which opened the door to piracy of a sort which no one has anticipated. And then we managed to close down the piracy. We have you know, the iTunes store and people are but because of this, this explosion of piracy and now the prospect of just, you know, now it's all bits, it's not atoms anymore, we have a, just a fundamental devaluation of the product, right? Like, the value of the music has basically gone to zero, right, because my using a copy of it is not taking it from you.


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Because of two thingsits exhausted ability and exclude ability.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Well, because of two things: its exhaustability and excludability.  


'''Sam Harris:''' Right.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Right.  
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'''Sam Harris:''' Exactly.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Exactly.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' As it to do in the old days and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that car.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' As it to do in the old days, and 2) my having the record means that you don't have that copy.  


'''Sam Harris:''' I have to borrow it.  
'''Sam Harris:''' I have to borrow it.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  And that the, the per the unit costs is not zero.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  And that the unit cost is not zero.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  I can't copy your record for free. Yeah.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  I can't copy your record for free. Yeah.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  That is this issue about private goods and services became public goods and services and even the diehard economists who are free market have to recognize that if something is inexhaustible and an excludable price does not equal value and therefore it cannot command its value.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  That is this issue about private goods and services became public goods and services, and even the diehard economists who are free market have to recognize that if something is inexhaustible and inexcludable, price does not equal value and therefore it cannot command its value. So, that was clear to many of us just as...
So that was clear to many of us just as...


'''Sam Harris:'''  But I'm saying there's a non-nefarious account of what happened there. Where your iTunes, right, your Apple, you open iTunes for the good of all right? But you, you obviously want to make a profit, right? This is a fantastic business. But what, when, if you're the musician who now who's now because catalog is now worth, you know, one 10th of what it used to be worth and now you're, you have this sort of life change foisted on you, where now the only way for you to make ends meet is to tour. But you're 70 years old and you, you know, you, you felt your touring was behind you, right? All of this looks awful. But again, nobody was thinking about that guy when they, when these changes came about.
'''Sam Harris:'''  But I'm saying there's a non-nefarious account of what happened there, where you're iTunes, right, you're Apple, you open iTunes for the good of all right? But you obviously want to make a profit, right? This is a fantastic business. But if you're the musician whose catalog is now worth, you know, one tenth of what it used to be worth and now you're, you have this sort of life change foisted on you, where now the only way for you to make ends meet is to tour, but you're 70 years old and, you know, you felt your touring was behind you, right? All of this looks awful. But again, nobody was thinking about that guy when they, when these changes came about.


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Bull shit.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Bull shit.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, it's easy to see that most people weren't thinking, well, no one, no one had bad intentions toward that.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, it's easy to see that most people weren't thinking, well, no one had bad intentions toward that guy.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Remember, information just wants to be free and free like beer and all this nonsense. I thought that stuff was just like moronic at the time. Okay. The same thing with NAFTA, right? The claim...  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Remember, information just wants to be free and free like beer and all this nonsense? I thought that stuff was just like moronic at the time. Okay. The same thing with NAFTA, right? The claim...  


'''Sam Harris:''' But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're, you're, you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.
'''Sam Harris:''' But again, so, so what you had in your sites was not, you can't, I don't think you're the wrong theory of mind if you think everyone was aware of what you were aware of and just had the, say, the ethical switch flipped in the other direction.


''01:14:23''
''01:14:23''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook, right? They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society. In terms of how it's measured, one called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped. But were you to tax the winners to pay the losers everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms? So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric, alright, this is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They said, well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody, it's not our job, it was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...
'''Eric Weinstein:''' No, no, no. Ok. The class, the economic class teaches public goods in every Econ 101 textbook.
 
'''Sam Harris:''' Right.
 
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  They also teach trade. They have two different names for what happens to improve a society, in terms of how it's measured. One called Pareto improvement, which is that everybody in the society is as good or better off. And the other one called Kaldor-Hicks, which is, some people get hurt, some people get helped, but were you to tax the winners to pay the losers, everyone could be Pareto improved. Okay. When you ask these people in real time, "Why are you talking about a Kaldor-Hicks improvement in Pareto terms?" So, this is the technical, esoteric conversation. "Why is your exoteric description of this at odds with your esoteric?", alright? This is pure Straussian cryptic bullshit. They say, "Well, we can't really say that and we hope that somebody—it's not our job". It was this wall of total nonsense. And it wasn't that this wasn't being said in real time. But the number of people...


''01:15:35''
''01:15:35''


'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they, they have, they have one way of speaking to the profession. And one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I'm sure you can find the people at the conference who were, I mean it's, you know, they have one way of speaking to the profession, and one way of speaking on the op-ed pages in New York Times.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called the great moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' This is one of the reasons why you and I split on Nassim Taleb. I stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Nassim during the total nonsense called The Great Moderation in our financial structure right before 2008, right.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually,
'''Sam Harris:'''  And the only reason why I split on Nassim is that he just wakes up one morning and, you know, off his meds and attacks me for reasons I can never fathom. So, it's like, it's totally personal. Like, or it's intended to be personal. It's not that I take it personally. I mean, I actually—


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  I don't even think it's already personal. He can correct me on that.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  I don't even think it's intended to be personal. He can correct me on that. Look—


'''Sam Harris:'''  But it's apropos of nothing. Like I've been, you know, I've been sleeping when he was sleeping and then I turn on Twitter and I see that he's attacked me by name for some reason...
'''Sam Harris:'''  But it's apropos of nothing. Like I've been, you know, I've been sleeping when he was sleeping and then I turn on Twitter and I see that he's attacked me by name for some reason...
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'''Eric Weinstein:''' When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake like I have to hit. Right?
'''Eric Weinstein:''' When it says Nassim Nicholas Taleb—he's been my friend for a long time. I literally shake—like, I have to hit, right, "answer"?


''01:16:41''
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'''Eric Weinstein:''' Look, Nassim is not an inside cat. He just isn't. I see the things he does and I get, I get a lump in my throat and I think, am I going to have to defend this? I know I know what he does, but I think people don't understand him, so at least let me offer up a, an apology for, for Nassim Taleb, which he may rip my head off for saying. Nassim is constructed around things that are much larger than what other people are considering and I don't, I'm not saying that he does everything well. I obviously have a totally different tack than he does, so I'm very uncomfortable with his methods, but let's at least say what they are and steel man to the extent possible. Other people say you, you, you, Joe are misusing statistics. Nassim would say there's a problem with statistics. Yeah. And it's constructed to be misused and it's misused all the time in the same way. And if you do anything that you were normally taught to do in statistics class, if you have a PhD in statistics, you're part of the problem. And I'm going to hold you personally responsible right now. This is very disconcerting to people. Yeah.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Look, Nassim is not an inside cat. He just isn't. I see the things he does and I get, I get a lump in my throat and I think, "Am I going to have to defend this?" I know, I know what he does, but I think people don't understand him, so at least let me offer up an apology for Nassim Taleb, which he may rip my head off for saying. Nassim is constructed around things that are much larger than what other people are considering, and I don't, I'm not saying that he does everything well. I obviously have a totally different tack than he does, so I'm very uncomfortable with his methods, but let's at least say what they are and steelman to the extent possible. Other people say "You, Joe, are misusing statistics". Nassim would say "There's a problem with statistics."
 
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah.  
 
'''Eric Weinstein:''' And it's constructed to be misused, and it's misused all the time in the same way, and if you do anything that you were normally taught to do in statistics class, if you have a PhD in statistics, you're part of the problem, and I'm going to hold you personally responsible.  
 
'''Sam Harris:''' Right
 
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Now, this is very disconcerting to people.  


''01:17:57''
''01:17:57''


'''Sam Harris:''' And so, I mean, I, I don't think we should spend a lot of time on this, but there, there are areas where I am not qualified to fact check him. The areas where I am, where he gives opinions are just as strident, it's just a deluge of bullshit coming from him. So, like he, you know, the stuff he has said about religion and science is not even, I mean, the truth is it's not even wrong. It's like it's, it's, it's incoherent. It's not like he's got a, a counterpoint that I still think is wrong, but you know, it has to be argued against. It's just this vomitus.
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. And so, I mean, I don't think we should spend a lot of time on this, but there are areas where I am not qualified to fact check him. But the areas where I am, where his opinions are just as strident, it's just a deluge of bullshit coming from him. So, like he, you know, the stuff he has said about religion and science is not even, I mean, the truth is, it's not ''even'' wrong. It's like it's incoherent. It's not like he's got a counterpoint that I still think is wrong, but, you know, it has to be argued against. It's just this vomitus.


''01:18:32''
''01:18:32''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' I've gotten there too. I can't stand the style cause it just hurts me. Like I just, I, I'm very uncomfortable by it. However, there are plenty of times when I thought he was talking nonsense that like, at first it sounds like he's making a sensible objection. Then I'm just like convinced this as he's going off the rails and then I push further and it turns out there's even more of a point. So I have learned to be very cautious around him, not because he's the person you want around for most of the time, but when we were in the middle of the great moderation and I, I punked out cause I was, I was with him and I was giving talks about Epstein and Madoff, it was at the two mysterious functions in New York. And I used to put slides up about black arts capital. It was sort of a play on like Blackstone or BlackRock.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Look, I've gotten there too. I can't stand the style, cause it just hurts me. Like I just, I, I'm very uncomfortable by it. However, there are plenty of times when I thought he was talking nonsense that, like, at first it sounds like he's making a sensible objection. Then I'm just like convinced this as he's going off the rails, and then I push further and it turns out there's even more of a point. So I have learned to be very cautious around him, not because he's the person you want around for most of the time, but when we were in the middle of the Great Moderation and I, I punked out, cause I was, I was with him and I was giving talks about Epstein and Madoff—it was at the two mysterious functions in New York, and I used to put slides up about black arts capital. It was sort of a play on like Blackstone or BlackRock.


''01:19:23''
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'''Eric Weinstein:''' And the idea is we'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' And the idea is "We'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you."


'''Sam Harris:'''  Right.
'''Sam Harris:'''  Right.


'''Eric Weinstein:''' The, we, we just didn't know. And I, I got Madoff wrong. I thought he was front running his legitimate business, which turns out it was just a Ponzi scheme.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' The—we, we just didn't know. And I got Madoff wrong. I thought he was front running his legitimate business, which turns out it was just a Ponzi scheme.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Right.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  Right.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  But I knew Epstein was very likely to be something totally other than he was. Nassim during this period of time that we were both discussing the nonsense. That was the suppose great moderation, was the other guy who would take as much punishment as the community would throw at him and then would just humiliate him. It's like, Oh, he made one lucky trade in 1987 the guy's an idiot. He's a blowhard. He's a fool. And I couldn't take the pressure from giving this talk that obviously we hadn't banished volatility. And I think around 2005, I was about three years in and Nassim says, you know, you're going to regret getting out of this early.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  But I knew Epstein was very likely to be something totally other than he was. Nassim, during this period of time that we were both discussing the nonsense. That was the supposed Great Moderation, was the other guy who would take as much punishment as the community would throw at him. And they would just humiliate him. It's like, "Oh, he made one lucky trade in 1987, the guy's an idiot. He's a blowhard. He's a fool." And I couldn't take the pressure from giving this talk that obviously we hadn't banished volatility. And I think around 2005, I was about three years in, and Nassim says, "You know, you're going to regret getting out of this early. You should see it through." And it always stuck with me that I didn't quite have the courage, or the strength, or the guts, or the disagreeability to continue, at least to hold the intellectual position. I couldn't time when this thing was going to blow, but it was, you know, I wrote [http://eric-weinstein.net/Papers/Nuisance_of_Translucence.pdf this thing on mortgage backed securities with Adil Abdulali in 2001]. This was nonsense. And it was a world in which almost no one was willing to call it out. And so the singularity in my world about Nassim has to do with he's willing to be one person against billions. He will literally just stand up against any crowd.  
 
''01:20:15''
 
'''Eric Weinstein:''' You should see it through. And it always stuck with me that I didn't quite have the courage or the strength or the guts or the disagreability to continue, at least to hold the intellectual position. I couldn't time when this thing was going to blow, but it was, you know, I wrote this thing on mortgage backed securities with Adil, Abdullah Ali in 2001. This was nonsense. And it was a world in which almost no one was willing to call it out. And so, the singularity in my, in my world about Nassim has to do with he, he's willing to be one person against billions. He will, he will literally just stand up against any crowd.  


''01:20:58''
''01:20:58''


'''Sam Harris:''' Okay, well, so that's, that's often a bug. And you found the one case perhaps where it was a feature, but it's a, I mean, first of all, we're all like that to some degree. I mean, we were, we're all standing up, right?  
'''Sam Harris:''' Okay, well, so that's, that's often a bug. And you found the one case perhaps where it was a feature, but it's a, I mean, first of all, we're all like that to some degree. I mean we're all standing up against a lot, right?  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' It's very hard for me.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' It's very hard for me.
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'''Sam Harris:'''  And, yeah, but it...  
'''Sam Harris:'''  And, yeah, but it...  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' I mean, I, I do it and you do it, but you don't get weak-kneed. I get weak-kneed.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' I mean, I, I do it, and you do it, but, you don't get weak-kneed? I get weak-kneed.  
 
'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah, occasionally. But it's, it's, there is a kind, I mean, again, I'm a, not to psychoanalyze him, but there's this, there's a sort of Trumpian level personality problem layered on top of his intellect where, I'm not disputing the guy is smart, he's a, there's no question, he's smart, but there's just, there's so much personality to get through and wrangle with, to interact with whatever, whatever smarts are showing up for depending on the topic. And again, with some topics, you know, I haven't found the smarts, but I'm not disputing that.
 
''01:21:47''


'''Sam Harris:''' The guy, obviously he's intelligent, is just, he's so, there's no one more enamored of his intelligence than him. Right. And it's just, it's like that level of egocentricity. Again, it has a kind of Trumpian, you know, peacock fan, a quality to it. And in in the cases where it's warranted, it's still extra and it's bullshit and it's annoying when it's unwarranted, it's embarrassing and he has zero sense of where he is on, on that landscape.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah, occasionally. But it's, there is a kind, I mean, again, I'm—not to psychoanalyze him, but there's this, there's a sort of Trumpian-level personality problem layered on top of his intellect where, I'm not disputing the guy is smart, there's no question, he's smart, but there's just, there's so much personality to get through and wrangle with, to interact with whatever, whatever smarts are showing up, depending on the topic. And again, with some topics, you know, I haven't found the smarts, but I'm not disputing that. The guy, obviously he's intelligent, is just, he's so, there's no one more enamored of his intelligence than him, right. And it's just, it's like that level of egocentricity. Again, it has a kind of Trumpian, you know, peacock fan, quality to it. And in the cases where it's warranted, it's still extra, and it's bullshit, and it's annoying, when it's unwarranted, it's embarrassing and he has zero sense of where he is on, on that landscape.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  I hear what you're saying. I do have the sense of the number of floorboards that I can hide under when the storm troopers come from me, a very few and far between that I can count on and I can count on his.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  I hear what you're saying. I do have the sense of the number of floorboards that I can hide under when the storm troopers come from me, are very few and far between that I can count on, and I can count on his.  


'''Sam Harris:''' Okay.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Okay.  
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'''Eric Weinstein:''' So, we don't need to derange on that front.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' So, we don't need to derange on that front.


'''Sam Harris:''' You're putting a high price on personality, I mean I get..
'''Sam Harris:''' You're putting a high price on personality, I mean, I get—


''01:22:34''
''01:22:34''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' No, I'm about...
'''Eric Weinstein:''' No, I'm about—


'''Sam Harris:''' ... a high price on personal loyalty.  
'''Sam Harris:''' ... a high price on personal loyalty.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  But you know, Sam, I honestly, I find the same thing about you. If I'm in a storm, you're one of the tiny number of phone calls I can place and it's very odd for me that ...
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  But you know, Sam, I honestly, I find the same thing about you. If I'm in a storm, you're one of the tiny number of phone calls I can place, and it's very odd for me that ...


'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I would want you to, I would want you to feel that way.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Well, I would want you to, I would want you to feel that way.  
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'''Sam Harris:''' So, when I call it pick it up and ...  
'''Sam Harris:''' So, when I call it pick it up and ...  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Okay.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Yeah, yeah. Okay.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  But you need not, you need not shudder at what's coming.
'''Sam Harris:'''  But you need not, you need not shudder at what's coming.


'''Eric Weinstein:''' But getting, getting back to the, to this large... So, with all of these very dangerous and disturbing topics, I start to understand that you believe, and I think it's correct that we often get to hell through a road paved with good intentions.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' But getting back to the, to this large... So, with all of these very dangerous and disturbing topics, I start to understand that you believe—and I think it's correct—that we often get to hell through a road paved with good intentions.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' I don't disagree with that.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' I don't disagree with that.  


'''Sam Harris:''' And the, and the converse is also true. You can have, you can have good effects of, of bad intentions and that's, and you shouldn't, you shouldn't credit the good effects too highly there. You know, because like the, the, I think intentions matter for the most part. I mean, intentions are the operating system. So, we could like if you are, if you're iterating on your intentions, if you're, if your error correcting...
'''Sam Harris:''' And the, and the converse is also true. You can have, you can have good effects of, of bad intentions and that's, and you shouldn't credit the good effects too highly there, you know, because like the, I think intentions matter for the most part. I mean, intentions are the operating system. So, we could like, if you are, if you're iterating on your intentions, if you're error correcting—


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Right.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Right.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  And hewing back to, to the, the outcomes you actually want, right. That is, those are the people we can collaborate with that, you know, when they're, when they're ethical, they, the people who are right by accidents, are producing good things by accident are ...
'''Sam Harris:'''  —and hewing back to the outcomes you actually want, right, that is, those are the people we can collaborate with that, you know, when they're ethical. The people who are right by accident, are producing good things by accident are—


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  It's, it's how, it's how we encode this. That's so interesting to me. Like when we order veal, we just say the word veal. We don't think about what it is that we're causing to occur.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  It's how we encode this that's so interesting to me. Like when we order veal, we just say the word "veal". We don't think about what it is that we're causing to occur.  


'''Sam Harris:''' I want the, I want the three-minute video before I eat the veal.  
'''Sam Harris:''' I want the three-minute video before I eat the veal.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Exactly. Like very few of us do that. When I think about like how Debbie Wasserman-Schultz...
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Exactly. Like very few of us do that. When I think about like how Debbie Wasserman-Schultz—


'''Sam Harris:''' But that's why I don't order veal, right. That that's a difference. At a certain point, too much information has a consequence. Right? Like I, I'm not comfortable with veal or foie gras, right.
'''Sam Harris:''' But that's why I don't order veal, right. That's a difference. At a certain point, too much information has a consequence, right? Like I'm not comfortable with veal or foie gras, right.


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Yeah.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Yeah.


'''Sam Harris:''' So, it's like if, and it would matter, it should if you said, well, here's veal, but this is veal, this is pain-free veal. Right.  
'''Sam Harris:''' So, it's like if, and it would matter, it should if you said, well, here's veal, but this is pain-free veal, right.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Right.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Right.  


'''Sam Harris:''' This is veal that was, you know, synthesized in a lab. No animals involved. The problem goes away. So that's that. That's the fact that there is, you'd want there to be a difference there.
'''Sam Harris:''' This is veal that was, you know, synthesized in a lab. No animals involved. The problem goes away. So that's—the fact that there is, you'd want there to be a difference there. You wouldn't want, I mean, well, take the most extreme case. You wouldn't want to be the person who would pay more for the veal if you knew there was more suffering associated with it, right? You wouldn't want to, we wouldn't want to be the person for whom the suffering is part of the pleasure, right? That's clearly a place on the moral landscape you don't want to be.
 
''01:24:44''


'''Sam Harris:''' You wouldn't want, I mean, well, take the most extreme case. You wouldn't want to be the person who would pay more for the veal if you knew there was more suffering associated with it. Right, you wouldn't want to, we wouldn't want one, we  wouldn't want to be the person who, for whom the suffering is part of the pleasure. Right? That's the, there, that's clearly a place on the moral landscape you don't want to be.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Yeah.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Yeah. And you don't want to be associated with, right. So, if that's at all unsavory, then they're there many gradations of better than that.  
'''Sam Harris:''' And you don't want to be associated with, right. So, if that's at all unsavory, then there are many gradations of better than that.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Right. So, it's back to my issue about orcas are either the best or worst species?
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Right. So, this gets back to my issue about orcas are either the best or worst species...


'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. No but I didn't mean to derail you there, but it matters. Like we need to unpack the mimetic complex and get at what's inside. And it matters if we, if we fail to, if there's a lot inside and we were, we're unaware of it.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. No but I didn't mean to derail you there, but it matters, like we need to unpack the mimetic complex and get at what's inside. And it matters if we fail to, if there's a lot inside and we're unaware of it.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Sure.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Sure.  
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'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Okay.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Okay.  


'''Sam Harris:''' How often are we just saying veal, but...  
'''Sam Harris:''' How often are we just saying veal, without realizing...  
 
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  For example, I remember when Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was being interviewed about superdelegates and she said they're not super delegates. They're unpledged delegates and delegates. And why do we have to have them? And I think she said something to the effect, and if I'm getting this wrong, I apologize.
 
''01:26:04''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Something like, well, you wouldn't want the, the people who aren't regular party workers, you know, just being able to take over the party, something like this. I was thinking like, Oh, that's what we all think it is, that it's a primary and that the people who are registered Democrats should figure out who that they should support as a candidate. And her point was, well, we have to have a thumb on the scale, otherwise democracy might happen.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' But, for example, I remember when Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was being interviewed about superdelegates and she said "They're not superdelegates, they're unpledged delegates." And why do we have to have them? And I think she said something to the effect—and if I'm getting this wrong, I apologize—something like, "Well, you wouldn't want the people who aren't regular party workers, you know, just being able to take over the party", or something like this. I was thinking like, Oh, that's what we all think it is, that it's a primary and that the people who are registered Democrats should figure out who that they should support as a candidate. And her point was, "Well, we have to have a thumb on the scale, otherwise democracy might happen."


'''Sam Harris:'''  Right? Yeah.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  Right. Yeah.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  And like that thing is how we encode the badness. We encode it by creating some different way of talking about it.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  And, like, that thing is how we encode the badness. We encode it by creating some different way of talking about it.


'''Sam Harris:'''  How we encode it or we fail to encode it, how it becomes operable or how...
'''Sam Harris:'''  How we encode it? Or we fail to encode it? How it becomes operable? Or how...


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, nobody's a bad person in their own mind most of the time.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, nobody's a bad person in their own mind most of the time.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah. Most.
'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah. Most—


'''Eric Weinstein:'''    So, when I do bad things, I encode it differently. So, we were just in a, in a situation where we were waiting in a very long line of cars for an off ramp and our car, you know, and our car sort of zoomed ahead and then asked somebody's you know understanding that we would cut in right towards the exit.
'''Eric Weinstein:'''    So, when I do bad things, I encode it differently. So, we were just in a situation where we were waiting in a very long line of cars for an off ramp and our car, you know, and our car sort of zoomed ahead and then asked somebody's, you know, understanding that we would cut in right towards the exit.


''01:27:11''
''01:27:11''
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''01:28:03''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' See I think you would have been less likely to cut in line, but if you did cut in line, I wonder if you'd be less likely to notice it and talk about it the way I do. So, I think that your morality and my morality differ slightly.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' See, I think you would have been less likely to cut in line, but if you did cut in line, I wonder if you'd be less likely to notice it and talk about it the way I do. So, I think that your morality and my morality differ slightly.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  I don't think you're giving me, you're giving Nassim Taleb too much credit and you're not giving me enough.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  I don't think you're giving me, you're giving Nassim Taleb too much credit and you're not giving me enough.  
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'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Oh, is that right?  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Oh, is that right?  


'''Sam Harris:'''  So, so I am
'''Sam Harris:'''  So, so I am—


'''Eric Weinstein:''' I see you as being pretty consistent in a lot of ways.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' I see you as being pretty consistent in a lot of ways.  


'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. What I aspire to be is to, to cut in line the right amount.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. What I aspire to be is to, to cut in line the right amount.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Okay.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Okay.  


Sam And to be appropriately nonjudgmental when I see someone else cut in line.
'''Sam Harris:''' And to be appropriately nonjudgmental when I see someone else cut in line.


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, so that's very odd. I'm pretty close to that.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, so that's very odd. I'm pretty close to that.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah. I mean I, so I don't have too many illusions about what it is to do it and what and but what it is when somebody else does it. So, I don't, I'm not as, and when I catch, when I occasionally catch myself in that, that mismatch between you know, who I'm capable of being in one moment and how judgmental I am of somebody else in that same mode.  
'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah. I mean I, so I don't have too many illusions about what it is to do it, and what it is when somebody else does it. So, I don't, I'm not as, and when I catch, when I occasionally catch myself in that mismatch between, you know, who I'm capable of being in one moment and how judgmental I am of somebody else in that same mode.  


''01:29:02''
''01:29:02''


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Noticing your own sort of issues makes you a better person if you can port them more generally. So, in other words, if you say, look, I, I recognize that you know, I'm not the, I'm not the best around food or something, but yeah, I am very conscious in some other area like being timely. Well, if you can recognize some, somebody else's failings as akin to your own in a different area and port that, that's a way in which like being in touch with your own hypocrisy I think makes you a better person. And I worry about people who are trying to rid themselves of their hypocrisy rather than first noticing it and then sort of minimizing it so that it is, it's less garish.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' Noticing your own sort of issues makes you a better person if you can port them more generally. So, in other words, if you say, look, I recognize that, you know, I'm not the best around food or something, but yeah, I am very conscious in some other area like being timely. Well, if you can recognize somebody else's failings as akin to your own in a different area and port that, that's a way in which, like, being in touch with your own hypocrisy I think makes you a better person. And I worry about people who are trying to rid themselves of their hypocrisy rather than first noticing it and then sort of minimizing it so that it is less garish.


'''Sam Harris:'''  But yeah. But to be, to truly want to minimize it, you have to be in touch with it.
'''Sam Harris:'''  But yeah. But to be, to truly want to minimize it, you have to be in touch with it.
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'''Sam'''  So, we run those, that's two pieces of software you're running at the same time.  
'''Sam'''  So, we run those, that's two pieces of software you're running at the same time.  


'''Eric'''  Well, it's, I think it's more like I don't see any prospect for ridding myself of it. And other people, so, I caught someone that I have to get rid of it. You know, it's like it's, it's a, it's an imagined state that they could, they could prove more or less that you can't live without it.  
'''Eric'''  Well, it's, I think it's more like I don't see any prospect for ridding myself of it. And other people, so, I caught some, I have to get rid of it. You know, it's like it's an imagined state that they could—I could prove more or less that you can't live without it.  


'''Sam'''  We, we, because you're not a unitary thing, right?  
'''Sam'''  We—because you're not a unitary thing, right?  


'''Eric'''  You aren't a unitary thing. Right. And most of us, even though we know that we still treat ourselves as unitary things, which is bizarre.
'''Eric'''  You aren't a unitary thing. Right. And most of us, even though we know that, we still treat ourselves as unitary things, which is bizarre.


'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah.
'''Sam Harris:'''  Yeah.


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well you're in the mindfulness...
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well you're in the mindfulness space...


'''Sam Harris:'''  I work hard not to do that,
'''Sam Harris:'''  I work hard not to do that—


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Yeah, but I don't have an app, but I don't do, do these practices. But I'm still very conscious of that fact that I'm not, I'm not unitary. Yeah.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Yeah, but I don't have an app, and I don't do these practices. But I'm still very conscious of that fact that I'm not unitary.  


'''Sam Harris:'''   No, I mean that if you follow that a little bit further, that becomes very interesting because you're not, but that doesn't mean you, there's not a, there's no norm you wanted to aspire to follow.
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. No, I mean that if you follow that a little bit further, that becomes very interesting because you're not, but that doesn't mean you, there's not a, there's no norm you wanted to aspire to follow.


''01:30:53''
''01:30:53''


'''Sam Harris:''' Right. Like you can be, there are faces of your mind, you can prefer to others and you can, and there's also something that happens when you're, when you cease to be taken in by your, your different selves and all these different modes, right. To the, to the normal degree. Then you can actually, then there's a kind of freedom to navigate to a kind of a happier, conversation.
'''Sam Harris:''' Right. Like you can be, there are faces of your mind, you can prefer to others, and you can, and there's also something that happens when you're, when you cease to be taken in by your different selves and all these different modes, right. To the normal degree. Then you can actually, then there's a kind of freedom to navigate to a kind of a happier, conversation.


'''Eric Weinstein:'''   But there is some way in which what you're talking about is that one of your parliaments of selves is that your meta-self, which you're probably getting as close to identifying with unitarity as anything else.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' But there is some way in which what you're talking about is that one of your parliament of selves is your meta-self, which you're probably getting as close to identifying with unitarity as anything else.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, it's just, there is, the more you..
'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, it's just, there is, the more you see..


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  The thing that supervises the sub-routines, you would probably call Sam Harris.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  The thing that supervises the sub-routines, you would probably call Sam Harris.  


'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, I would, it's, it's more diaphanous and that may ultimately, it's, there's consciousness. I mean, the only thing that can supervise anything is, or be aware of anything or experience anything is what I'm calling consciousness.
'''Sam Harris:'''  Well, I would, it's more diaphanous and, I mean, ultimately, it's just consciousness. I mean, the only thing that can supervise anything is—or be aware of anything, or experience anything—is what I'm calling consciousness.


''01:31:52''
''01:31:52''


'''Sam Harris:''' Now, that's not when you really pay attention to what that's like. It doesn't actually answer to the, to the name I or me. I mean, it really is just, it's just this open space in which everything's appearing, including thoughts and intentions and desires and emotions. And there, it really is a, a cacophony, but the cacophony changes the more you fall back to this position of just witnessing the show. Right. And so, you know, it's like you're, you're I guess, let me give one analogy that's actually fairly apropos is the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming. Right? The more you lucid a dream, the more you actually can kinda change your dreams. I mean, that's what it is.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Now, that's not—when you really pay attention to what that's like, it doesn't actually answer to the, to the name "I" or "me". I mean, it really is just, it's just this open space in which everything's appearing, including thoughts and intentions and desires and emotions. And there, it really is a cacophony, but the cacophony changes the more you fall back to this position of just witnessing the show, right. And so, you know, it's like you're—I guess, one analogy that's actually fairly apropos is the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming, right? The more you lucid dream, the more you actually can kinda change your dreams. I mean, that's what it is.  


'''Eric Weinstein:''' It builds the point.  
'''Eric Weinstein:''' To a point.  


'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. But you're still, you know, there's a consequence to being lucid and in your, and being perpetually lost in thought being perpetually, being identified...
'''Sam Harris:''' Yeah. But you're still, you know, there's a consequence to being lucid and in your—and being perpetually lost in thought being perpetually, being identified...


'''Eric Weinstein:''' Of not noticing.
'''Eric Weinstein:''' But not noticing—


'''Sam Harris:'''  Not noticing, thought as thought, being identified with every intention that that surfaces in the mind is really deeply analogous to be, to being asleep and dreaming and not knowing you're dreaming.
'''Sam Harris:'''  Not noticing thought as thought, being identified with every intention that that surfaces in the mind is really deeply analogous to being asleep and dreaming and not knowing you're dreaming.


''01:33:03''
''01:33:03''


'''Sam Harris:''' Right. Whether you're in a situation you're not recognizing.  
'''Sam Harris:''' Right, you're in a situation you're not recognizing.  


'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, it's interesting because sometimes I can't actually use the information. So, for example, when you went into the, don't we want the best and brightest thing, right? I thought, oh my God, Sam is going to drag me there. And that way he's to believe, well, no, because, because there is no thing called xenophillic restrictionism, which is what most of us are. Certainly, I am in, in my belief structure. And the idea that every single news organ is ready to call any restriction, a xenophobe. I'm thinking, oh my God, Sam is dragging me to this place. He doesn't even know it. And I'm starting to get angry and agitated and excited. And there was nothing I could do to actually, I couldn't find any control knob.  
'''Eric Weinstein:'''  Well, it's interesting because sometimes I can't actually use the information. So, for example, when you went into the, "don't we want the best and brightest" thing, right? I thought, oh my God, Sam is going to drag me there. And that way he's to believe, well, no, because, because there is no thing called xenophillic restrictionism, which is what most of us are. Certainly I am, in my belief structure. And the idea that every single news organ is ready to call any restriction, a xenophobe. I'm thinking, oh my God, Sam is dragging me to this place. He doesn't even know it. And I'm starting to get angry and agitated and excited. And there was nothing I could do to actually, I couldn't find any control knob.  


'''Sam Harris:'''   But so, it did come back to, to earth where you know, something more concrete than pure consciousness.
'''Sam Harris:''' But so, it did come back to, to earth where you know, something more concrete than pure consciousness.


''01:33:59''
''01:33:59''

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