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Difference between revisions of "31: Ryan Holiday - Conspiracy, Manipulation & other Pastimes"
31: Ryan Holiday - Conspiracy, Manipulation & other Pastimes (view source)
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unreachable. It was g | |||
orious. Yeah. It's strange. Not that not that long. I mean, this is I'm telling you probably l | orious. Yeah. It's strange. Not that not that long. I mean, this is I'm telling you probably l | ||
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s the moment. In what ways Am I diminished? What parts of my capacity if I forgotten for that? Well, what I'm really trying to get at Yeah, ultimately, is that a lot of transformations have taken place that have not been well documented, that divorce us increasingly from what might be termed our super ancestors, people. Like there are no 400 hitters in baseball. Yeah, we've accepted that that was a different errands. Now that can't be sure, but it seems like we could accomplish all sorts of things recently. Li that we can't now. And it's very interesting the extent to which we've lost capacities. And we haven't documented what it was that took them from us. Like, I can't figure out why I can' | s the moment. In what ways Am I diminished? What parts of my capacity if I forgotten for that? Well, what I'm really trying to get at Yeah, ultimately, is that a lot of transformations have taken place that have not been well documented, that divorce us increasingly from what might be termed our super ancestors, people. Like there are no 400 hitters in baseball. Yeah, we've accepted that that was a different errands. Now that can't be sure, but it seems like we could accomplish all sorts of things recently. Li that we can't now. And it's very interesting the extent to which we've lost capacities. And we haven't documented what it was that took them from us. Like, I can't figure out why I can' | ||
read a book. Well, so related to that one, I think it was Daniel Boston, if you read him at all, he wrote this book, the image about sort of the invention of modern media. He's basically talking about what television radio does, is fascinating. I think it was like the Librarian of Congress or something. But he was he was like, the Lincoln the Lincoln Douglas debates. It was like Lincoln talked for three hours. Douglas talked for three hours. Then everyone took a break and went home and came back. And then they each argued for like, another three hours. You're like, now the democratic debates are like, an hour and 20 minutes and there's eight candidates, you know, like, human beings used to be able to consume incredibly long form complex like these were farmers and blacksmiths and People was sitting here watching one of the smartest people who ever lived. One of the most eloquent speakers of all time talk for three hours without break, you know? unamplified, have you seen certain losses of capability? I mean, I think the I think the ability to consume very long form content whether it's you know, Robert Caro book, or it's a, you know, 1000 you know, line poem. I think those are one of the one of the only bright spots to me as podcasts that people will listen to a three hour Joe Rogan and long form podcasting and long form television. Yes, yes. Although I find long form television to be very manipulative and not a sign of progress. Oh, say more. This is great. So I think okay, so it like, when I watch, I don't know, bloodlines? What I got the sense of is that like, let's say I watched the first three seasons, which I thought were good and then I realized I just watched 22 hours of television and eight minutes of things have happened. What they did is they like instead of having to create beats inside the show to get you to go from commercial break to commercial break, they, they just know that if they if they keep you going, if at the end, you're vaguely interested, you will let it autoplay to the next thing. So it's, it's taking what what could be a compressed really interesting couple hours of television and and it's like how the YouTube algorithm rewards watch time, right so people just make shit longer than it genuinely needs to be. Like as a writer, one of the favorite rules, one of the favorite exercises I heard Raymond Chandler would write on basically index cards and his typewriter and his rule is like something has to happen on every The index card. So if you read a Raymond Chandler thing, it's like beat beat beat beat beat. Now you read, you know, some novel that wins the National Book Award. And it's like, weirdly, it is 2000 pages or 1000 pages, but nothing happens. The characters learn nothing, you know, no lessons are taught. So like, it's it's even some of the long form stuff that we consume. It's mostly just a testament to our ability to veg out or consume it in the background as we're doing another thing, rather than be ver | |||
engaged with uh, well, then, maybe what I want to do is to break out is there some long form television that you think isn | |||
t empty calories? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sure | t empty calories? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sure | ||
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dn't waste a lot. So you liked it. I did. And look, I would say that the HBO model is different than the Netflix model. The HBO model is like, this has to be so good. You will wait one week and hold on to the threat and come back to right the Netflix model is Can I Can I steal Tuesday from you guys you know like when you call in sick from work and watch a episodes of gangs con or Narcos or whatever. Okay | dn't waste a lot. So you liked it. I did. And look, I would say that the HBO model is different than the Netflix model. The HBO model is like, this has to be so good. You will wait one week and hold on to the threat and come back to right the Netflix model is Can I Can I steal Tuesday from you guys you know like when you call in sick from work and watch a episodes of gangs con or Narcos or whatever. Okay | ||
well then what's going on with Joe Rogan? This is | |||
singular funnel. Yes, | |||
t is fascinating. Someone was telling me that for like, there's a whole generation of people that don't even know you can listen to Joe Rogan that you like they just watch it on. Like, I mean, I it makes no sense to me that someone could watch a three hour YouTube video like I just don't understand where you would well. They're, they're lightly watching it often. I think so. But but but I think it is a it's a generational, also a lifestyle thing that is somewhat new. But I was just listening to his Malcolm Gladwell interview, and it's like three and a half hours. And I was like, literally entertained for every second. He's looking he's, I think he's a master of it. And I think what he's | t is fascinating. Someone was telling me that for like, there's a whole generation of people that don't even know you can listen to Joe Rogan that you like they just watch it on. Like, I mean, I it makes no sense to me that someone could watch a three hour YouTube video like I just don't understand where you would well. They're, they're lightly watching it often. I think so. But but but I think it is a it's a generational, also a lifestyle thing that is somewhat new. But I was just listening to his Malcolm Gladwell interview, and it's like three and a half hours. And I was like, literally entertained for every second. He's looking he's, I think he's a master of it. And I think what he's | ||
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Eric Weinstein 38:04 | Eric Weinstein 38:04 | ||
Yeah, it's like, Okay, if you live in some small town, you might think, Oh, this person is a certified financial advisor. They they're, they know more about money than me. Yeah. Which might be true. But like, they would not be if they were really good at managing money, they would not be running at Charles Schwab office in, you know, Toledo or something, right. And so it's like, you just, oh, the people who are writing for this outlet or that outlet are in it, unless, I mean, there's obviously exceptions, like Malcolm Gladwell writes for The New Yorker, but has is also an entrepreneurial creator in other ways. But, you know, you just realize, Oh, you're it's sort of like the survivorship bias. Like all the good people have been all the fundamentally talented people have been siphoned off | |||
and work for them so that I really, I don't know that I hold exactly that take on. There's a selection bias. I think that there's an aspect of People merging with these venerable structures. There is power from an institutional perspective that hasn't been completely lost and frittered I'm not quite sure whether the millennials still pay attention. But that came from Harper's, that came from the Atlantic that came from the New Yorker. However, what I'm very curious about is at what point do the super vital people start going back into the institutional structures? Like I will see things happen on the Joe Rogan program? Yeah. And unless there's an angle to take somebody down, it doesn't filter back into what is this thing I call the gated institutional narrative, because it's mostly an idea that certain organs only talk to each other and themselves. Right. And that the power of that conversation to stay focused on it could be completely irrelevant and wrong things or misleading things are terrible things, but it still has a measure of coherence that the world Wild West LAX, and I'm questioning what happens when the interesting stuff is incoherent. And the other stuff has a coherence, even if | and work for them so that I really, I don't know that I hold exactly that take on. There's a selection bias. I think that there's an aspect of People merging with these venerable structures. There is power from an institutional perspective that hasn't been completely lost and frittered I'm not quite sure whether the millennials still pay attention. But that came from Harper's, that came from the Atlantic that came from the New Yorker. However, what I'm very curious about is at what point do the super vital people start going back into the institutional structures? Like I will see things happen on the Joe Rogan program? Yeah. And unless there's an angle to take somebody down, it doesn't filter back into what is this thing I call the gated institutional narrative, because it's mostly an idea that certain organs only talk to each other and themselves. Right. And that the power of that conversation to stay focused on it could be completely irrelevant and wrong things or misleading things are terrible things, but it still has a measure of coherence that the world Wild West LAX, and I'm questioning what happens when the interesting stuff is incoherent. And the other stuff has a coherence, even if | ||
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nt Film Festival. You know, you've already got the Charles Schwab Office of Toledo, Ohi | nt Film Festival. You know, you've already got the Charles Schwab Office of Toledo, Ohi | ||
really angry. Is that ever gonna give us I'm from Sacrament | |||
, okay, or I feel like you just plugged in a sec. There's no such t | , okay, or I feel like you just plugged in a sec. There's no such t | ||
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t to some extent. Well, one of the so what I do because I do this email every morning I write an email called daily stoic and it's one sort of stoic inspired meditation every day, instead of quoting plays because no one gets those. I use song lyrics a lot and I find song lyrics are also something that people have a have a lot o | t to some extent. Well, one of the so what I do because I do this email every morning I write an email called daily stoic and it's one sort of stoic inspired meditation every day, instead of quoting plays because no one gets those. I use song lyrics a lot and I find song lyrics are also something that people have a have a lot o | ||
familiarity with really depends on what era it does. When I found out that my millennial co workers had never heard bridge over troubled waters by Simon and Garfunkel. I | |||
ad a real moment. But I bet if you let's say you've written an email and the title was like, we need a bridge over troubled water, there would be a vague cultural like not in this algebra connection to that, even if they don't get it. There's a vague | ad a real moment. But I bet if you let's say you've written an email and the title was like, we need a bridge over troubled water, there would be a vague cultural like not in this algebra connection to that, even if they don't get it. There's a vague | ||
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amiliarity. I bet OMG lol aro FL Really? I don't think I mean, I've been shocked how little transmission there is to a lot of my Mullane. And again, this isn't a knock on them. It's just things that were incredibly important and salient just dropped by the wayside. And then there will be references. Like a lot of them will know Led Zeppelin. Yeah. And I'll say wow, why is it that you all know this but yo | amiliarity. I bet OMG lol aro FL Really? I don't think I mean, I've been shocked how little transmission there is to a lot of my Mullane. And again, this isn't a knock on them. It's just things that were incredibly important and salient just dropped by the wayside. And then there will be references. Like a lot of them will know Led Zeppelin. Yeah. And I'll say wow, why is it that you all know this but yo | ||
don't know that? Yeah, it's like classic rock | |||
versus full grok. I did hear this one thing to tie back to media there is like if you look at like, you know, media headlines over the last hundred years, there's lots of Yeah, Shakespearean references and like literary references like that. Headlines might be a pun on the and they were like the person was saying like in the future. The headlines will be Simpsons references like Because that is what's replaced the thing but that | versus full grok. I did hear this one thing to tie back to media there is like if you look at like, you know, media headlines over the last hundred years, there's lots of Yeah, Shakespearean references and like literary references like that. Headlines might be a pun on the and they were like the person was saying like in the future. The headlines will be Simpsons references like Because that is what's replaced the thing but that | ||
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ylor Swif | ylor Swif | ||
of the world, or even the hip hop, like a hip hop is everybody will point to the hip hop and say, No, no, the hip hop is actually that that's what's now that's just not getting I listened to it. I'm still not convinced that that's the music of now. Okay, that somehow our inability to say where we are in common and to build up that kind of PVS and we'll call it the inner subjective or what have you. Yeah. means that my music, even if it's great music sucks because it's not the m | |||
sic of this time. Sure. It's not roo | sic of this time. Sure. It's not roo | ||
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e telling they're waiting to understand that the | e telling they're waiting to understand that the | ||
look ridiculous. I think they are but there's also an argument that like we're the deplorable zz who are not gett | |||
ng how offensive. Do you really Hell's i don't i don't believe that. Look, I didn't think chapels thing was th | ng how offensive. Do you really Hell's i don't i don't believe that. Look, I didn't think chapels thing was th | ||
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Eric Weinstein 1:04:48 | Eric Weinstein 1:04:48 | ||
what | |||
Ryan Holiday 1:04:52 | Ryan Holiday 1:04:52 | ||
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ere lower. And so didn't Bob Dylan have that conversation by singing Maggie's farm, gone electric at Newport. And it wasn't that the import is like, I'm tired of you guys telling me that. I'm breakin | ere lower. And so didn't Bob Dylan have that conversation by singing Maggie's farm, gone electric at Newport. And it wasn't that the import is like, I'm tired of you guys telling me that. I'm breakin | ||
free. Screw you. Maybe maybe that's a good point. I don't know. But it's a very I thought it was a revealing cultural moment that like the person was All the power it I don't think Bob Dylan was then as big as Taylor Swift is now. He didn't have 100 million Instagram followers. Do you know what I mean? Yea | |||
. But you're what you're wired | . But you're what you're wired | ||
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Unknown Speaker 1:12:19 | Unknown Speaker 1:12:19 | ||
it i | |||
Eric Weinstein 1:12:22 | Eric Weinstein 1:12:22 | ||
our minds. Okay. I won't change my euro. Ok | |||
Ryan Holiday 1:12:25 | Ryan Holiday 1:12:25 | ||
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Eric Weinstein 1:14:31 | Eric Weinstein 1:14:31 | ||
pictures of your I don't want to say normatively. Yeah, but the thing that I'm just fascinated by is the idea isn't occurring to these people like that. Yeah, you know, once you have a kid in a school and you're worried about how the kid is doing other parents have the same concerns about the same teachers and you're having these conversations, you start to think, Oh, well, this is what my body is programmed for, is to take this incredible interest in a tiny number of people. Now, I don't mean to say I'm positive that you won't mean to say that every single person needs to go have a child, right? It's just most people, most people. Yeah. On average. Yeah. Even. And I'm not even talking about having a great family like I have a challenge difficult family li | |||
e everybody else. Yeah, it could be a gay family. It could be a transgender, it doesn't really matter at a dys | e everybody else. Yeah, it could be a gay family. It could be a transgender, it doesn't really matter at a dys | ||
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Ryan Holiday 1:16:00 | Ryan Holiday 1:16:00 | ||
oldest is three, three and a half. And then I have a seven month old. So I'm i | |||
Eric Weinstein 1:16:03 | Eric Weinstein 1:16:03 | ||
deeping the shit all right, yeah, this is great. Yeah. By the way, three was definitely the I heard about the terrible twos. We had terrible threes. | |||
Ryan Holiday 1:16:11 | Ryan Holiday 1:16:11 | ||
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ls have left? The wheels have left the ground? Yeah. And that was like that was one of these feelings. Where you do have that sense that somehow you've contributed one of the things I find very strange is that children are about the most interesting thing to have. But they they're terrible for talking about them, particularly to people wh | ls have left? The wheels have left the ground? Yeah. And that was like that was one of these feelings. Where you do have that sense that somehow you've contributed one of the things I find very strange is that children are about the most interesting thing to have. But they they're terrible for talking about them, particularly to people wh | ||
don't have them. Yeah, it's a i | |||
's an F football. There's an inevitable quality and wasn't gonna try to g | 's an F football. There's an inevitable quality and wasn't gonna try to g | ||
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t something here. And it also gives you a weird relation to your own body and feelings and that, like, if you can step back from it, you know, it's hard and exhausting and difficult. And somehow your body and mind is telling yourself that it's worth it and amazing, like, you get a sense of like, Oh, my body is like that my wife would like to have another kid. I'm like, you saw what this did? Like | t something here. And it also gives you a weird relation to your own body and feelings and that, like, if you can step back from it, you know, it's hard and exhausting and difficult. And somehow your body and mind is telling yourself that it's worth it and amazing, like, you get a sense of like, Oh, my body is like that my wife would like to have another kid. I'm like, you saw what this did? Like | ||
It was horrible. I mean, let's be honest. Yeah, this was a life and death activity. It still is occa | |||
ionally but yeah, yeah, yeah. And and, and you're still not sleeping from the first to write not gotten any of this stuff. You wanted to get back back yet. But your mind is able to. It's weird. It's, it's like it's like the equivalent like So normally, you're flying the plane, and you're convinced you're the pilot. And then every once in a while autopilot kicks in. And you realize that it's overriding you and you don't have nearly as much have a say and as you think you have had, that I think kids sort of give you a weird glimpse into how biologically driven you are | ionally but yeah, yeah, yeah. And and, and you're still not sleeping from the first to write not gotten any of this stuff. You wanted to get back back yet. But your mind is able to. It's weird. It's, it's like it's like the equivalent like So normally, you're flying the plane, and you're convinced you're the pilot. And then every once in a while autopilot kicks in. And you realize that it's overriding you and you don't have nearly as much have a say and as you think you have had, that I think kids sort of give you a weird glimpse into how biologically driven you are | ||
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and your life is. So I'm very concerned about the idea that a lot of the people that I really love and take seriously don't have a particular concern about the world beyond their own lifespan. And that's very hard to convince them of why they should care. A lot of these people increasingly have an idea of, I don't really need to have kids, I enjoy my life. But it's very schematic it's very much about the purpose of life is to be happy. And if there's one thing I'm reasonably convinced of the purpose of life i | and your life is. So I'm very concerned about the idea that a lot of the people that I really love and take seriously don't have a particular concern about the world beyond their own lifespan. And that's very hard to convince them of why they should care. A lot of these people increasingly have an idea of, I don't really need to have kids, I enjoy my life. But it's very schematic it's very much about the purpose of life is to be happy. And if there's one thing I'm reasonably convinced of the purpose of life i | ||
not to be happy. We I think we would be happier if that's what we were b | |||
ed for. Yeah, for Yeah, well, happiness is approximate to guide you to doing certain things that are actually about something related. I mean, it's not it's not our thoughts. to happiness, but some ki | ed for. Yeah, for Yeah, well, happiness is approximate to guide you to doing certain things that are actually about something related. I mean, it's not it's not our thoughts. to happiness, but some ki | ||
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ll off the trike. Yeah, it's time it's time for it's almost it's like nepotism would be refreshing. Like like that. You're that you're you're retiring as CEO and putting Your son in charge, or your daughter in charge would be refreshing better than you jus | ll off the trike. Yeah, it's time it's time for it's almost it's like nepotism would be refreshing. Like like that. You're that you're you're retiring as CEO and putting Your son in charge, or your daughter in charge would be refreshing better than you jus | ||
never let it go. Well, the thing that the one that really breaks my heart is how many weekend getaways Do you people need? And I said this thing about you're gonna have hard drives filled with photos that nobody cares about and you're never gonna hold a grandchild in your own arms. What What is even going through your mind? So like gallery, yeah, is a concept that | |||
we can sign while developing world wealth, this redistr | we can sign while developing world wealth, this redistr | ||
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bution, just give your kids your money, whether well their ovarie | bution, just give your kids your money, whether well their ovarie | ||
are still fresh. No, it's funny, like so my parents I think are sort of typical. My parents were slightly late or like late the last generation of boomers, though the last sort of tail end of boomers but like when my we grew up in California, and then when my sister and I graduated from college, or went to college, my parents moved to Hawaii so they moved so the opposite of like Let's be near the kids. My parents moved literally as far as you can move away and stay in the United States. And then I can tell it makes them sad that they don't have as close a relationship with their grandchildren as some of their friends. And it's like, you know, it's because you live in an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, right? And you put it together. I'm not going to the end, they go Come visit us. It's the beach. It's like, yeah, how hard it is to put two toddlers on an eight hour flight with a three hour time difference. T | |||
at's insane. Just get a paper route and just | at's insane. Just get a paper route and just | ||
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et a paper right? No, no, it's not an expense. It's just like, I'm just not gonn | et a paper right? No, no, it's not an expense. It's just like, I'm just not gonn | ||
do that. No, no, I understand. It's a complete disconnect. Yeah. The story I've been telling recently was going to my father's 85th birthday party and one of their friends this is the silent generation who doesn't take | |||
enough shit in my opinion for this because I think they really need your father's a silent and my father's silent jet is born before right before World War Two | enough shit in my opinion for this because I think they really need your father's a silent and my father's silent jet is born before right before World War Two | ||
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ght, right. Sure. So one of his friends says to me, you know, everything's changed so much. There used to be 14 boys who all played in the street where we live, and we've been in that house, you know, for decades. And I said, Well, how many boys playing the street now says none. I said, What do you mean? So? Don't families can afford the street? I said, does that strike you that you were able to afford the street when you started and now you have an idea? Of course no families can afford I mean, is there any part of this that that | ght, right. Sure. So one of his friends says to me, you know, everything's changed so much. There used to be 14 boys who all played in the street where we live, and we've been in that house, you know, for decades. And I said, Well, how many boys playing the street now says none. I said, What do you mean? So? Don't families can afford the street? I said, does that strike you that you were able to afford the street when you started and now you have an idea? Of course no families can afford I mean, is there any part of this that that | ||
lands none of it? Well, it's also it's like, you should move into a two bedroom condo. And then people you You should have moved to Florida. And then people could have your house. It's not only that it can't afford can't afford it. It's that you're | lands none of it? Well, it's also it's like, you should move into a two bedroom condo. And then people you You should have moved to Florida. And then people could have your house. It's not only that it can't afford can't afford it. It's that you're still in the house. Yes, but I would say differently, but I just been in California. It's like, it's also because boomers aren't selling their houses because they don't want to want to | ||
take the tax hit. That here's the disconnect for me. Do you understand that you caught a wave? Do you imagine that the rest of us just aren't as smart as you? Were? Nobody's hard working because that's one of the means. It's like well, and I believe that it's exactly the reverse that the millennials watch the Sixers This is a friend of mines as I said, we we watched you give everything to try to make these careers work and fail and so we're not going to fall for that. So we're going to be | take the tax hit. That here's the disconnect for me. Do you understand that you caught a wave? Do you imagine that the rest of us just aren't as smart as you? Were? Nobody's hard working because that's one of the means. It's like well, and I believe that it's exactly the reverse that the millennials watch the Sixers This is a friend of mines as I said, we we watched you give everything to try to make these careers work and fail and so we're not going to fall for that. So we're going to be | ||
interesting Sure. Yeah. Or it's like if you know retirements a lie, and it's not gonna happen, | interesting Sure. Yeah. Or it's like if you know retirements a lie, and it's not gonna happen, you should go to now you should go to limit front load your life because quite frankly, we don't have a Plan. There's no there's no retirement plan. Yeah, no, no, I think I think that's right. And that's right. Yeah. It's, there's also, I think, let's say you're a millennial. It's like, I remember my freshman year of high school, I watched 911 live on television. You know, then I watched the war in Iraq. Then I watched the financial crisis. You know, I was lucky in that I dropped out of college. I didn't take any debt. I wrote, I caught some waves that other millennials didn't get to catch. Right. But like, I mean, that's a dark 10 year period right there, you know, like, of shit happening and being lied to. And you, we you watched? I think the antagonism between millennials and boomers is not just the straight generational conflict, but it's, it's it's like the boomer conflict between their parents. It's like sure their problems but like there was a heroism to the greatest generation in history. A sacrifice there. It's like you just watched like sort of rank moral hypocrisy and selfishness from the boomer generation without much in the way of redeeming qualities. Do you | ||
know what I mean? Well, I don't think let me just get my spin on this. There's nothing magical about the generations. Yeah. The question is, what was your developmental environment and your economic environment growing up? Yeah. So I thought I just had a problem with authority. Turned out when I started working for somebody younger than myself as an expert. Yeah, some of the extras don't figure into the millennials straight, which is very extra thick. It's hysterically funny. I found that I was easily able to take direction from somebody like Peter teal. Not because I had a hierarchy or authority issue, but because really the problem was silence and boomers have beliefs that I don't share. Sure, they just don't understand what they do. Do makes no sense to me? None. I cannot process it. And it's not like I haven't studied it or try to understand her. It's just certain things that are obvious realities to me. It's like speaking at a high frequency that their ears can't hear. Yeah. The division to me is you had silence and boomers and then there's a line and then Xers millennial Gen Z, are all saying, well, we're not part of whatever story is going on above that line. And and maybe to tie back to the art problem, the art discussion. I think one of the big problems is that we don't have any story whatsoever. There's no mediums, music, television, especially literature, which is, you know, my focus that is telling any kind of redeeming, inspiring, meaningful, what's | |||
inspiring Laurie, come on, we I don't even believe this. What What is it? You've taken tremendous inspiration for From stoicism Yeah. Right. Yeah. You've profiled like, you know, this is an incredibly weird yeah heroic story of Peter against Gawker, unless it's the reverse which case it's the, you know, the rich Baron debt laying low the for the Free Press. Yeah. Either way that you tell that story. It's an eff | inspiring Laurie, come on, we I don't even believe this. What What is it? You've taken tremendous inspiration for From stoicism Yeah. Right. Yeah. You've profiled like, you know, this is an incredibly weird yeah heroic story of Peter against Gawker, unless it's the reverse which case it's the, you know, the rich Baron debt laying low the for the Free Press. Yeah. Either way that you tell that story. It's an eff | ||
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I I'm a throwback of no no you know you're of this moment you're part of the same which I was very curious when you said your colleagues or your peers who are they? What's your what' | I I'm a throwback of no no you know you're of this moment you're part of the same which I was very curious when you said your colleagues or your peers who are they? What's your what' | ||
your what's your timing? I feel like I spend most of my time communicating with peo | |||
le that are dead, like like, you talk to th | le that are dead, like like, you talk to th | ||
dead and so do i do well so so xeno is the founder of stoicism he goes to the oracle of done sigh he's a young man, he's This is a merchant family's incredibly wealthy. He trades tyrian purple, which is the purple dye that makes the Emperor's cloak. And he stops to the Oracle of Delphi, Delphi, and he says, what should I do with my life? Basically, this is the timeless question, right? And they say, your light, you will, you will become your best self, when you begin having conversations with the dead. And he shortly thereafter suffers a shipwreck washes up in Athens, loses everything. And he walks into a bookstore, and the bookseller is reading it dialogue of Socrates. And this he realizes, oh, this is the conversation with the dead. You know, Socrates is dead, you know, few decades by the time this happens, and he realized, Oh, I'm talking to Socrates and this, this creates the School of philosophy that I now believe in, but I think I think what we have lost is We This is the closing the America of the closing the American mind the blue blue. We've lost we've destroyed the cannon replaced it with nothing. You know we we destroyed the myths of founding of America replaced it but nothing we've questioned patriotism replaced it with nothing. You know we we tore down marriage replaced it with nothing. You know we tore down the office, the community, the small town square, all the things we tore them down and we've replaced them with nothing. I feel like I I'm I'm rooted in those. I'm rooted in that a more ancient tradition. That's to me where I find me to rebuild that | |||
a bit. I hope so. Okay, so when you bathe your three year old Yeah. How's yo | a bit. I hope so. Okay, so when you bathe your three year old Yeah. How's yo | ||
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k to I think 1609 to find a drinking song for Mike, I don't want to call them a cult, but the people who are coalescing around this podcast Yeah, they're probably now 10 different performances of the song on a Google Drive. Oh, you know, one like an EDM. Another was is a swing version. You know, somebody else has done like three part. Religious harmony. Yeah. People want meaning. And the whole point that we can't get at is these open communities where everybody can comment on YouTube and say You suck. You don't even get it. You're so far out, you know? Yeah. You got pawned? Yeah, that thing just needs to shut the fuck up. And we need to exclude it. Because I think we've wildly overestimated diversity and inclusion. We need interoperability. Yeah. To allow for the diversity and exclusion. There's certain voices, that we now need to just turn the volume all the way to zero. They can have their free speech. Sure, but it's very important that | k to I think 1609 to find a drinking song for Mike, I don't want to call them a cult, but the people who are coalescing around this podcast Yeah, they're probably now 10 different performances of the song on a Google Drive. Oh, you know, one like an EDM. Another was is a swing version. You know, somebody else has done like three part. Religious harmony. Yeah. People want meaning. And the whole point that we can't get at is these open communities where everybody can comment on YouTube and say You suck. You don't even get it. You're so far out, you know? Yeah. You got pawned? Yeah, that thing just needs to shut the fuck up. And we need to exclude it. Because I think we've wildly overestimated diversity and inclusion. We need interoperability. Yeah. To allow for the diversity and exclusion. There's certain voices, that we now need to just turn the volume all the way to zero. They can have their free speech. Sure, but it's very important that | ||
those voices not. I'm a fan | those voices not. I'm a fan of shadow banning. I'm not a big fan of shadow banning by corporate interests. We're doing it for the wrong reason. Yeah. I'm a big fan of excluding people and heads on pikes when you actually have the conviction of why that person needs to be excluded f | ||
om the community. Yes, like for instance, I don't I think like Twitter, instead of banning people, Twitter should tweak the algorithm to de emphasize politics. Let's say and reemphasize photos of pizza, or whatever. Like I think I think what we've allowed is toxic conversations or styles of conversations to dominate the town squares in a way that's made them almost on on on unlistenable or, you know, ma | om the community. Yes, like for instance, I don't I think like Twitter, instead of banning people, Twitter should tweak the algorithm to de emphasize politics. Let's say and reemphasize photos of pizza, or whatever. Like I think I think what we've allowed is toxic conversations or styles of conversations to dominate the town squares in a way that's made them almost on on on unlistenable or, you know, ma | ||
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been muted as far as well there's that but part of the problem is is that people who are using these attacks on the lower brain so for example, if you have followers and start who starts to say, Wow, right, it really is an interesting point. I really like it is developing. Like then you start getting these like weird accounts that are remo | been muted as far as well there's that but part of the problem is is that people who are using these attacks on the lower brain so for example, if you have followers and start who starts to say, Wow, right, it really is an interesting point. I really like it is developing. Like then you start getting these like weird accounts that are remo | ||
as on your shar | as on your shar. Yeah. And like, you know, that blowhard has been mining the same passage from Seneca Yeah, tell me something new. Did you read a new book today? Okay, so now you muted that you don't realize that that person is changing the | ||
. | xperience. Right? For everyone else are a great example of this. There's almost like a law that Like a subreddit is formed by people who are fans of a thing, right? And then it becomes dominated by people who actually hate this process. It's like if you leave a dead body out, and then you put a time lapse photography, Time Lapse camera on it, you'll see this weird process by which the body is reclaimed. | ||
Yeah. Okay, sure. That seems to be a feature of our time that I wish we were talking about that anything hopeful and decent and meaningful left out in this environment. Yeah. will be eroded and Mima FIDE and cheapened and degraded Sure, simply by virtue of the fact that it was out there. Yeah, there is an aspect of saying there's a reason that we don't leave the original Constitution. In an open air Park it's protected under bulletproof glass and Hell | |||
eah, modifier and the key point is Can you touch it? Understand why can't we touch it? were the people, the people? No, you can't touch it. You just can't. Right. Yeah, it's sure protections and enforcing of boundar | |||
eah, modifier and the key point is Can you touch it? Understand why can't we touch it? were the people, the people? No, you can't touch | |||
. You just can't. Right. Yeah, it's sure protections and enforcing of boundar | |||
es and norms. And well, this is the thing. This is what has to start. I mean, I literally watched the moderators of one of these groups dedicated to this show, and they were they were in pain. So I don't want to I don't want to exclude anybody. I don't want it. It's just that heads on pikes. Yeah. Take the first real troll and make a public example of this person. Yeah. And there's shittiness. Right, and let that, you know, put that at the gates of the city wall so that everybody understands exactly how you'll be asked to l | es and norms. And well, this is the thing. This is what has to start. I mean, I literally watched the moderators of one of these groups dedicated to this show, and they were they were in pain. So I don't want to I don't want to exclude anybody. I don't want it. It's just that heads on pikes. Yeah. Take the first real troll and make a public example of this person. Yeah. And there's shittiness. Right, and let that, you know, put that at the gates of the city wall so that everybody understands exactly how you'll be asked to l | ||
ave the community right. Now, that's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, it's weird. I feel like everyone, everyone should have experience moderating an internet forum. Like I cuz I did that as a certain internet nerd growing up and so I, I, you Yeah, you're like, Look, you gotta You got to ban people or you got to get rid of people or you have to insist on the rule like if there are rules and you don't insist on people following that rule you descends into a | ave the community right. Now, that's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, it's weird. I feel like everyone, everyone should have experience moderating an internet forum. Like I cuz I did that as a certain internet nerd growing up and so I, I, you Yeah, you're like, Look, you gotta You got to ban people or you got to get rid of people or you have to insist on the rule like if there are rules and you don't insist on people following that rule you descends into anarchy immediately I also think you need an injustice budget. Like in other words, you can't move through the world you like the Jains in India? They don't do any harm. Okay? Yeah. Okay, well, no, you have to you have to be allowed to do some injustice as you move through planet Earth. Got it? So the fact that so many people have an idea that they have to only have type one error and never have type two error is paralytic. Well, so I wrote a piece a couple months ago about hunting and Hunter. Yeah, I go live on a little farm in Texas mostly mostly boars, because they're an enormous invasive species. But what I love two things about it. I love one if I took a picture of my breakfast this morning, people Oh, that's a delightful photo right? If I took a picture of a boar I shot a murder, right? No, actually what One is much less violent and cruel than the other right? Bacon from a factory farm. You know sausage from I encourage everyone to read the walrus and the carpenter poem of Lewis Carroll. I' | ||
read this. Well, you know, the time has come, the walrus said to talk of many things of shoes and chips and celiacs of cabbages and kings and why the seas boiling hot and whether pigs have wings ever heard now, it's a dialogue between these two characters who trick a bunch of oysters into being their lunch. Ah, and one of them is very sad about the fact that they've done such a nasty thing and the other ones like, Oh, come on, we did it. Whatever. Yeah. And I really detest you. The question is, who do you detest more? Yeah, and I always detested the one with this sort of mock care and sanctimony and pity Yes, whereas other people have the idea. Well, at least that's a nub of something to begin an em | |||
ath. conversation when that was my point in the article, it's not that everyone should hunt. But it's, I feel like everyone should do it once because you realize, Oh, this is a complicated thing. Which brings up complicated emotions, you learn that food comes from life and death. And you learn that there is violence in the world. And that sometimes like your point about ingest, like it is, in one respect unjust to kill this animal. On the other hand, this is where food comes from. On the other hand, somebody else killed all the mountain lions and the wolves. And so now there's not a predator to kill these wild boar which shouldn't be here. And so there's an unlimited population of them and they are destroying the environment that you say th | ath. conversation when that was my point in the article, it's not that everyone should hunt. But it's, I feel like everyone should do it once because you realize, Oh, this is a complicated thing. Which brings up complicated emotions, you learn that food comes from life and death. And you learn that there is violence in the world. And that sometimes like your point about ingest, like it is, in one respect unjust to kill this animal. On the other hand, this is where food comes from. On the other hand, somebody else killed all the mountain lions and the wolves. And so now there's not a predator to kill these wild boar which shouldn't be here. And so there's an unlimited population of them and they are destroying the environment that you say th | ||
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re is no way out. That's That's exactly right. And I think I think for instance, this might seem like a stretch but because so you, you, you go out you hunt, wild boar, you do it once you get the experience that it's, there's a certain amount of injustice, but this injustice prevents a greater injustice, blah, blah, blah. To me, like Austin is like San Francisco like Los Angeles that's struggling with a housing crisis and homelessness. So Austin is had this where I live is at this long standing belief that if we don't build infrastructure, people won't come here. If we prevent density, our place will not become dense and we will preserve the bubble of our wonderful city. Well, me being outside the city I have a place in town and a place outside so the The on the one hand, it's great for me that there's restrictive zoning laws because it means my house in town has steadily gone up in value faster than anything else. The other hand because they can't build a 30 storey apartment complex in my neighborhood, what they are doing is raising large forests and beautiful tracts of land that were formerly farms right outside city limits and turning them into mobile home parks. So these people who think, well it would be unjust to push these lower middle lower income people out of their neighborhood. So richer people could move into nicer apartments. They think by restricting zoning by not passing laws, they are preventing an injustice, but actually a greater environmental injustice. And a number of other in justices are happening just right on the other side of town, but because they don't see it, they don't have to feel it. And and so the whole like People the homeless crisis and then there they cannot see this is a boomer thing they cannot see, their insistence on protecting the single family home is directly responsible for tha | re is no way out. That's That's exactly right. And I think I think for instance, this might seem like a stretch but because so you, you, you go out you hunt, wild boar, you do it once you get the experience that it's, there's a certain amount of injustice, but this injustice prevents a greater injustice, blah, blah, blah. To me, like Austin is like San Francisco like Los Angeles that's struggling with a housing crisis and homelessness. So Austin is had this where I live is at this long standing belief that if we don't build infrastructure, people won't come here. If we prevent density, our place will not become dense and we will preserve the bubble of our wonderful city. Well, me being outside the city I have a place in town and a place outside so the The on the one hand, it's great for me that there's restrictive zoning laws because it means my house in town has steadily gone up in value faster than anything else. The other hand because they can't build a 30 storey apartment complex in my neighborhood, what they are doing is raising large forests and beautiful tracts of land that were formerly farms right outside city limits and turning them into mobile home parks. So these people who think, well it would be unjust to push these lower middle lower income people out of their neighborhood. So richer people could move into nicer apartments. They think by restricting zoning by not passing laws, they are preventing an injustice, but actually a greater environmental injustice. And a number of other in justices are happening just right on the other side of town, but because they don't see it, they don't have to feel it. And and so the whole like People the homeless crisis and then there they cannot see this is a boomer thing they cannot see, their insistence on protecting the single family home is directly responsible for tha | ||
homeless crisis. Do you see your own hypocrisy? Clearly? What like, what in what I just said are in | |||
my life? No, just you're talking about benefiting from things, things that are also having negative consequences. What is your relationship? i? Yeah, I'm treating it as a dance like a forum. Yeah. Where some some other person would say I'm not a hypocrite. Yeah, I, of course, am a hypocrite. I would imagine that you would recognize that you were one as | my life? No, just you're talking about benefiting from things, things that are also having negative consequences. What is your relationship? i? Yeah, I'm treating it as a dance like a forum. Yeah. Where some some other person would say I'm not a hypocrite. Yeah, I, of course, am a hypocrite. I would imagine that you would recognize that you were one as | ||
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t's really large. Yeah, I think it's like, let's try not to be a raging hypocrite, rather than try to be utterly and hyp | t's really large. Yeah, I think it's like, let's try not to be a raging hypocrite, rather than try to be utterly and hyp | ||
critical. I mean, I think that that's the right the right posture and I think that I don't in an online world signing yourself up for being for truth for goodness for consistency. Yeah. You just dooming yourself to fail. There's no possible way that you're going to leave a trail that isn't going to contradict | critical. I mean, I think that that's the right the right posture and I think that I don't in an online world signing yourself up for being for truth for goodness for consistency. Yeah. You just dooming yourself to fail. There's no possible way that you're going to leave a trail that isn't going to contradict itself many times over. Yeah. And one of the stoic ideas is sort of be strict with yourself and tolerant of others. We have it the exact opposite in our sort of media culture, especially, like, I always laugh at the sky is falling alarm of media people about the collapse of norms in politics. These are the same people who wake up every day and had been part of a generational collapsing of neurons. Inside journalism, right and so we can be norm enforcement is not something that you insist on other people do. It's something that you follow. I think religious people get this wrong to the 10 commandments are not you for you to enforce on other people. The 10 commandments are 10 rules to govern your behavior, because that's also your that's what's u | ||
der your control. Yes. Yeah. Where do you think we are with our press? Like, if you just look at, for example, the Andrew Yang coverage in the last election, which everyone saw as being very clearly distorted, yeah. Or am I wrong? Do you agree th | der your control. Yes. Yeah. Where do you think we are with our press? Like, if you just look at, for example, the Andrew Yang coverage in the last election, which everyone saw as being very clearly distorted, yeah. Or am I wrong? Do you agree th | ||
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ot doing our job. Yes. And so, so that person was probably very friendly to Andrew Yang probably every interview in the course of that story made them sound like an eminently reasonable person. | ot doing our job. Yes. And so, so that person was probably very friendly to Andrew Yang probably every interview in the course of that story made them sound like an eminently reasonable person. | ||
nd then the knife | nd then the knife stuck in in twisted. Yes. And something that I also took from you. I think that story is rife with is what was it? The rustle can rustle conjugation that's exactly like so how you decide to spin those things is the difference between him looking like ruthless businessman, a fool or savvy, savvy. Seven ruthless might be Russell conjugates. Yes, but but fool is the preferred way of destroying people in our culture. And I actually think what Trump like it, maybe I had this theory that like the media just wants, if there's a sort of bent towards nihilism, or absurdity, it's like how do we just undermine the credibility of everyone? Everyone in everything constantly by by sort of pointing out weird flaws, contradictions showing, portraying their worst moments blowing up, you know, bad comments, that that's that's the equivalent. The analogy is that's all you don't feel good. Here's some antibiotics, you don't feel good. Here's some antibiotics. And then Trump and some other figures, I think, doesn't just have to be political are the Sooners drugs that are anti biotic or anti right? resistant to antibiotics? Right. And then we don't have another play. Like we don't have anything we can do. Are you fascinated by the Trump phenomenon was originally a very horrified, and I've come back down to more of a be | ||
used fascination. That's so dangerous. I mean, I, I've always found him fascinating. Yeah. And I think a lot of what he does is just trolling. But he's trolling as the country commander in chief, he has the world's most dangerous machine at his fingertips. Right. And he's like The Cat in the Hat having a field day. Yes, I feel like the fish. And the other thing that I can't stand is the way in which the left insists on being played by him at every possible opportunity. No | |||
I think, I think like no learning seems to take place well, so it's impossible to get someone to understand what's in their financial interest to not understand ideologically they could not dislike Trump more commercially. He could not be You better. So the idea that they would learn this and kill the golden goose is just not going to happen. But when that stat that, oh, we gave Trump, you know, the media gave Trump $2 billion in free publicity. The media business turns around and sells that free publicity at a multipl | |||
, you know, like, so you really think? I mean, it's not that I don't understand the economic opposition. Yeah. You really think? I mean, I don't even think that that media war against Trump is working | , you know, like, so you really think? I mean, it's not that I don't understand the economic opposition. Yeah. You really think? I mean, I don't even think that that media war against Trump is working | ||
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happened to them. There's a Les Moonves quote was also a shitty person right serial sexual harasser but he said, you know, Trump is bad for America but very good for CBS. So let's hope it keeps going. So I think at the very top, there's some sense of that, but I think it's like if you're, if you're a social justice warrior reporter has never been a better time to be that before. There's an unlimited amount of material. I'll be honest, I don't | happened to them. There's a Les Moonves quote was also a shitty person right serial sexual harasser but he said, you know, Trump is bad for America but very good for CBS. So let's hope it keeps going. So I think at the very top, there's some sense of that, but I think it's like if you're, if you're a social justice warrior reporter has never been a better time to be that before. There's an unlimited amount of material. I'll be honest, I don't | ||
ully believe you. Okay. In other words, if that were true, then you would vote for Trump. And you won't. Me. You mean that report reporter that SJW reporters that PR I don't think these people I think they are benefiting from it and implicitly and subconsciously they're doing things to further this. Yeah. Nicholas conflict. I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't think they really want Trump to | ully believe you. Okay. In other words, if that were true, then you would vote for Trump. And you won't. Me. You mean that report reporter that SJW reporters that PR I don't think these people I think they are benefiting from it and implicitly and subconsciously they're doing things to further this. Yeah. Nicholas conflict. I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't think they really want Trump to continue in office. Yeah, right. But so I think there there is the, but that's the Upton Sinclair thing is that you don't you don't understand why you're not understanding it because you're you think ISIS are blinding you to to | ||
what's happening. You know, I saw this before I always try to use the same example. So people learn. The word nucular was not understood by the educated because they would always correct it to nuclear And then they would always lose because they would say, okay, you win the idiotic point and you lose the fact that you just look like a jerk. Okay. Okay, so it was like an easy way to always win an argument with somebody with a college education. Yeah. You could always win against the educated. They didn't ever get it. They didn't understand the person saying nucular understood it was nuclear. And they were doing it to bother them. Yeah | |||
it's just a wi | |||
. Yeah. You know, if I say Democrat Party, and I emphasize rat at the end, rather than Democratic Party, you know, it's like, I g | |||
t the hack. Yeah. But the other side somehow is, right is weirdly confused. Well, you know, when you see somebody being trolled, like if you if you ever been trolled and not realize that you were being trolled sometimes Yeah. So it's happened to me. Yeah. Most of us. It shows that you're On your job, or like somebody slips a reference in that you didn't get Yeah. I think that that kind of thing is constantly happening to the left where they just don't grasp. They're so convinced that they're on top of the game that they don't reali | |||
e they're losing. Yeah, I think that's right. | e they're losing. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, that's right. But I remember you talked about this on your episode of Tyler, where it's obvious what a terrorist is doing. It's obviously what a school shooter is doing. It's obviously what a mass murderer is doing. It's to get the attention, right? But the media is not able to, to break out of the pattern that the bad actor is maliciously exploiting. And my media manipulation book was sort of all about this. It's like, Look, if you if you create a website jazz Bell, which is designed to express feminist outrage, right, it becomes very easy for a marketer or a troll or a person who wants to get attention to go okay. The market here is for things that will outrage feminists. So I will do x and I will get y right. And I think Trump as an intuitive understanding of the attention economy, realizes what they want, like, realizes what the media wants, and he gives it to them. And they don't always realize that they're playing into it exactly. But it's why they're getting raises and why they're gaining | ||
Twitter followers. Why don't we do something more hopeful? Why don't we start a movement inside the democratic party called under new management where we kick the Clintons, the DNC and all the people who presided over the economy from 1992 and share the present the hell out of this party? Yeah, and say, okay, giant mistake cosmic screw up. They're gone. Yeah. Why do I Why am I dealing with these people year after year? Why are they still in the story? As anyone I mean, so many things have happened in human history that have not involved Hillary Clinton. Right? Why am I still dealing with Hillary Clinton? Right? nobody really wants her. No, nobody really likes Nancy Pelosi either or anywhere else. But yeah. Nancy Pelosi when she in her role is Starker. They may not like Nancy Pelosi, but they know that she's a darker she's a tough piece of muscle. Sure. And if she's your Starker then Okay, she's your bad guy to go up against their back. I don't think we have exactly the same feeling about Pelosi at | |||
the moment. Sure. Yeah, it is weird. You're sort of hostage to people who have have gotten very one sided verdict, is i | |||
? Yeah. You know, it's not it's not about her being a woman. It's not about her specific just don't like her in specific. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I don't know. But like, why aren't we even trying to take over this party? I think it's I think what's interesting is that like, there's the argument that Republicans control the levers of power. Democrats control the levers of culture, right? storytelling, like Hollywood's overwhelmingly liber | |||
l, you know, like that, is it? Yeah. I mean, have you been in these terrible definition? I don't even know what liberal means. If all what I'm just I'm just saying is, like many of the greatest storytellers of our time would identify as liberal and vote democratic. And yet, why are the liberals so bad at storytelling, narrative, branding? Like, why is Trump actually the one that is dominating the news cycle? that knows like when you watch the Democratic candidates speak, or when you watch Hillary's campaign, are they actually so abysmal at saying anything compelling, having any kind of | |||
l, you know, like that, is it? Yeah. I mean, have you been in these terrible definition? I don't even know what liberal means. If all what I'm just I'm | |||
olitical vis | olitical vis | ||
als, we're | als, we're lying? In what sense? Let's imagine I wanted to tell heartwarming, heartwarming story about immigration. Yeah. If I just have a story about a guy that comes with a dream and fans a company and puts all sorts of people to work and becomes an American hero, that's not a great story. At the moment, if I were instead to tell the story about a guy who comes over on an h1 b visa is being cynically exploited by importers of labor who are trying to destroy the American worker. And then he realizes what's going on. And then he founds a business despite the fact that he's been used as a pawn in this terrible game. And, you know, he starts speaking out on behalf of you know, do you think that they hate immigrants, they don't hate immigrants. What they really hate is your exploitation you America, like, Oh my God, what a story that would be. Yeah. Because then I would say, Wow, you've just resolved these two things. One, I've always been Loved immigrants and to I can't stand immigration and the reason is because it's being exploited. That's a story with an emotional core, which would allow people to say I've never heard anyone sing my song before. I work in an environment where I love the immigrants and I can't stand my American bosses because of what they're using the parents to do against me. We can't tell that story. Like, the weird thing is, is that the left is not in any way shape or form the left it's not liberal. It's not pro worker, okay, it's metastasized into some unrecognizable thing that has no authenticity and calling it the left. Like when you had protest songs that were witty that were smart that, you know, that nailed people where they lived. Sure, that worked. Sure you know this thing with gretta when Trump went after gretta, and he didn't go after credit directly, he went after the the exploitation of graduates He knew that I was a late, which is disgusting and there, but then I start to feel negative things about credit. Why should I feel any negative thing about credit the person, I have to maintain layers and layers, and it's the layers of manipulation and malware that are making all of us deran | ||
ed is am I wrong? Yeah, I went to this thing in LA, there's a bunch of big screen writers sort of created a consultancy for Democratic candidates. They're like, we're getting beaten and storytelling. So why don't we take the sort of best storytellers, and we'll consult for sort of ascended Democratic candidates of all kinds of political offices to help them | ed is am I wrong? Yeah, I went to this thing in LA, there's a bunch of big screen writers sort of created a consultancy for Democratic candidates. They're like, we're getting beaten and storytelling. So why don't we take the sort of best storytellers, and we'll consult for sort of ascended Democratic candidates of all kinds of political offices to help them | ||
tell a compelling narrative, Greg, what, I wonder | tell a compelling narrative, Greg, what, I wonder if I know the same group, I'm forgetting who it was. Billy Ray is one of them. Yep. It was his. I love the idea. I sort of wanted to be a part of it. And I went, and I won't say who the politician was actually forgetting the name. But the point was, that one of the Democratic candidates who came was was so smug and and, and sanctimonious, and so cloying in the things he was talking about is a person who accomplished like nothing legislatively, you know, but was what it was, it was very illustrated for me of the fundamental problem, I think which goes to your point, which is that instead of being honest and real, and thus relatable, the stories that the democrats are talking about just don't work. And I think the story you're talking about has has, is complicated. And there's some nuance and there's good and bad and you know what I mean? Like it's, that's a text story, right? My point is an important part of it. Okay, well, the left when they were able to tell like if you have cartoon evil, like you had, you know, with the with lynchings in the south, yeah, you can tell a simple story of farraj. Right. The idea that you're going to not be able to tell the stories of our time is this means exactly the same point again. All of the great left of center stories in the modern era begin w | ||
th we screwed up. Yes. Or we suck. You suck. You're the worst. You know, we mad | th we screwed up. Yes. Or we suck. You suck. You're the worst. You know, we mad | ||
we screwed up on trade. Yeah. We screwed up on immigration, and we screwed up on terror. We told you that if somebody says Allah Akbar after a mass killing that that means absolutely nothing. Yeah. And that made you feel crazy. Because if you have any Muslim I'm sure they're telling you hey, we have a problem in Islam. You guys aren't taking it seriously. Yeah. And every time I hear somebody say the tear in Islam have nothing to do with each other. I always tell them you've just told me that you have no close Muslim friends because if you had them they would be telling you we have a problem in Islam with terror. Yeah, okay. So when you do that thing, you make people like I can't. You know, I talked about this as a Hercule perot, Agatha Christie mystery, called the Allahu Akbar. murderers. Nobody can figure out why anybody's uttering this phrase after all of these mass killings, and you're cute. Hercule perot is the only one who can solve the case. Th | |||
t's crazy making, okay, | t's crazy making, okay, | ||
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side. Right? Like why don't you jus | side. Right? Like why don't you jus | ||
say Yeah, right. Right. Okay. And then the last one is immigration. We are an immigrant loving country. We love our me because we come from immigrants stock. And as a result, what did you do? You use the fact that we love immigrants and they are open to the world to figure out a way to read Distribute wealth and put a vacuum into most of our pockets that exhausts into yours. So you used immigrants to transfer wealth and then you said, Oh, you wouldn't hit you know, you wouldn't hurt a puppy dog, you would hit a girl with glasses, you wouldn't say anything against an immigrant. Okay, all of those things are invidious. They're in bittering. And the idea that America is taking its middle finger and sticking it into the eye of the Democratic Party. Yeah. is warranted unless, unless and until it makes contact with Yes, we had a group of people associated with Davos, who played those games on you and created massive amounts of income and asset inequality. They're gone now. Yeah, we can't do that. They're still there. They still want to play the same games. They won't let us tell our stories. I mean, like, you know, the whole me to thing that happened in Hollywood. There was a lot of texture in that movement. Yeah, that could have revealed all all of the different ways in which, you know, there's type one error, there's type two error is ambiguity, right. Instead, it was done incredibly starkly very silently victims, I believe, believe all women Yeah. Right. You know, it's just, th | |||
t's not workable. Well, and it's but and I think it's a betrayal of what are supposed to be the sort of core virtues that we supposedly all care | t's not workable. Well, and it's but and I think it's a betrayal of what are supposed to be the sort of core virtues that we supposedly all care | ||
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ng is is there is no what what what is what is the actual belief of the point? What is the belief of the Democratic Party, what do they actually stand for? And what are they what are their actual sort of clear policy? objectives like when I think about wealth, wealth transfer? Well, what I think back to the 2016 campaign is in retrospect, and I feel like I missed it, which is embarrassing and somebody writes about media is like, it's very obvious what Trump was campaigning on who's going to build a wall. It's going to kill terrorists. You know, he was going to do away with political correctness. He was going to sock it to the media, you know, he said what he was going to do. And what was Hillary going to do Hillary campaign on. I'm Hillary Clinton's, and people hate Hillary Clinton. And so I think even now, you're watching these five or six, you know, the as the pool windows, they're primarily campaigning on who they are. And they're all fundamentally been charismatic people, rather than as advocates for charismatic | ng is is there is no what what what is what is the actual belief of the point? What is the belief of the Democratic Party, what do they actually stand for? And what are they what are their actual sort of clear policy? objectives like when I think about wealth, wealth transfer? Well, what I think back to the 2016 campaign is in retrospect, and I feel like I missed it, which is embarrassing and somebody writes about media is like, it's very obvious what Trump was campaigning on who's going to build a wall. It's going to kill terrorists. You know, he was going to do away with political correctness. He was going to sock it to the media, you know, he said what he was going to do. And what was Hillary going to do Hillary campaign on. I'm Hillary Clinton's, and people hate Hillary Clinton. And so I think even now, you're watching these five or six, you know, the as the pool windows, they're primarily campaigning on who they are. And they're all fundamentally been charismatic people, rather than as advocates for charismatic | ||
seductive ideas. The big issue is Genie negative policy, what can you if the Gini coefficient measures the extent to which income and asset inequality has increased? Okay, what are you going to do to decrease the Gini coefficient create a more equal society? So my claim is that on the far left, you have things like wealth caps, you know, no More billionaires are wealth taxes, asset taxes, then you have sort of neutralise things like UBI, which were Android loan debt. Right. And then on the right, you have things like renegotiation of trad | |||
and | and | ||
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o see in theranos Yes, that that shows that the plot of the book, okay. Probably the book is like, this woman perpetrated a massive fraud and let's look at her rise and fall. Yeah, I think there's infinitely complex questions and the thing because it's like, Oh, okay. Good luck. argument was not we're right. Guard Gawker's argument legally was you'll will never get to a verdict. So it doesn't matter. You know, and that was actually Dockers, I think positioned for much of its history was like, it wasn't doing running these stolen photos, let's say. It's not a question of whether it was legal or they were, they almost would probably have admitted doing X was not legal, but the enforcement was it was impossible. Yes. And that you as the person who is humiliated or embarrassed whether you're very famous or your ordinary person, do not have the means, nor does it make strategic sense for you to try to fight us about it because you will only humiliate yourself further by fighting it. Right. And so do you thin | o see in theranos Yes, that that shows that the plot of the book, okay. Probably the book is like, this woman perpetrated a massive fraud and let's look at her rise and fall. Yeah, I think there's infinitely complex questions and the thing because it's like, Oh, okay. Good luck. argument was not we're right. Guard Gawker's argument legally was you'll will never get to a verdict. So it doesn't matter. You know, and that was actually Dockers, I think positioned for much of its history was like, it wasn't doing running these stolen photos, let's say. It's not a question of whether it was legal or they were, they almost would probably have admitted doing X was not legal, but the enforcement was it was impossible. Yes. And that you as the person who is humiliated or embarrassed whether you're very famous or your ordinary person, do not have the means, nor does it make strategic sense for you to try to fight us about it because you will only humiliate yourself further by fighting it. Right. And so do you thin | ||
it had a kind of ideological justificat | |||
on or it was Just i think i think in a way it was kind of a trolling and a nihilism. It was what can we get away with? This is fun. It was like a video. It was like a shoot 'em up video game to them. Sometimes they shot actual bad guys, and sometimes they just went | on or it was Just i think i think in a way it was kind of a trolling and a nihilism. It was what can we get away with? This is fun. It was like a video. It was like a shoot 'em up video game to them. Sometimes they shot actual bad guys, and sometimes they just went | ||
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ach other, right. I didn't have This says that Peter was very focused o | ach other, right. I didn't have This says that Peter was very focused o | ||
Nick personally. No, but I don't think he was that concerned about him being collateral damage in it, but I think what Gawker represented was Nick. But but it even Nick would talk to me later about how he there was an inmates running the asylum kind | |||
f a thing. That's what I wondered, because you know, that I also saw, I also believe, for example, that jack Dorsey isn't necessarily in control of Twitter now that Mark Zuckerberg is not really in control of Facebook, all of these things have an emergent structure. So that like, just like the AGI we keep worrying about, nobody's actually in control of an | f a thing. That's what I wondered, because you know, that I also saw, I also believe, for example, that jack Dorsey isn't necessarily in control of Twitter now that Mark Zuckerberg is not really in control of Facebook, all of these things have an emergent structure. So that like, just like the AGI we keep worrying about, nobody's actually in control of an | ||
of these things. Yeah, Peter compared it to that. Melville story. It was it bonito, the one where it's a slave ship and can that the slaves takeover, but then another slave ship comes up next to it and so they can't really veal that they've taken it over. So the slaves are patrol are walking the, the, you know decks of the ship, conspicuously sharpening knives and you know, like, like, it's like it's it Nick look like he was the head of the machine but was not no longer the head of the machine. The toxic culture he'd created was running the show. I mean, even like, so there | |||
s a tragic aspect for Nick Yeah, that he did have some kind of a moral core that he couldn't fully express th | s a tragic aspect for Nick Yeah, that he did have some kind of a moral core that he couldn't fully express th | ||
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l ism | l ism | ||
I think so yeah. I mean, I think that the forces, in particular once the press is emboldened by an unreal visited New York Times v. Sullivan, like if you think about, I often compare it to the 66 or 67 memoirs versus Massachusetts coming out of the Warren Court. Yeah. He's two incredibly idealistic decisions that are very simple and Stark, and very, you know, morally easy to understand. Yeah. One of them gets revisited, because it's too insane to actually implement and the other one sort of stays with us. And then now that the press seems often to be against the public interest as often as it is for the public interest, like having its own weird, independent agenda, it's terrifying to see tha | |||
much protection. Well, I think it's like if you're going to get the protections because in a way journalists almost have where the court decisions are coming. journalists have extra first minute rights that the ordinary person doesn't have, right? I can't walk down the street and defame and slander peo | |||
le but journalist provided there's no malice Yes, | le but journalist provided there's no malice Yes, | ||
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ics? Where is it? Oh, right. No, it doesn't. I didn't really there there is not one is there there is. I mean, there's different ones but there's not one that it's not like the Hippocratic oath or it's no | ics? Where is it? Oh, right. No, it doesn't. I didn't really there there is not one is there there is. I mean, there's different ones but there's not one that it's not like the Hippocratic oath or it's no | ||
like passing the board is one that is more universal than all the others and when you put journalists in contact with it, it's in a c | |||
se you freak out. Yeah, but but but but they're not in any way like you can be disbarred from being a lawyer your medical license can be revoked those that's the that's not really a legal thing that's like a separate body that we've created to to make sure that the pe | se you freak out. Yeah, but but but but they're not in any way like you can be disbarred from being a lawyer your medical license can be revoked those that's the that's not really a legal thing that's like a separate body that we've created to to make sure that the pe | ||