View source for 3: Werner Herzog

{{EpisodeInfoBox
|title=Werner Herzog
|image=[[File:The-portal-podcast-cover-art.jpg]]
|guest=[[Werner Herzog]]
|length=01:10:38
|releasedate=25 July 2019
|youtubedate=31 July 2019
|customlabel1=OmnyFM
|customdata1=[https://omny.fm/shows/the-portal/3-werner-herzog Listen]
|customlabel2=
|customdata2=
|customlabel3=
|customdata3=
|customlabel4=
|customdata4=
<!-- |download=[https://rss.art19.com/episodes/fc8934df-0bbe-48c0-aed1-25a0c3674712.mp3 Download] -->
|youtube=[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eua5iPUKw6Y Watch]
|link4title=Portal Blog
|link4=[https://theportal.group/werner-herzog-on-the-portal-episode-003-the-outlaw-as-revelator/ Read]
|prev=ep2
|next=ep4
}}
In this episode of "The Portal" podcast, Eric interviews legendary film-maker and director, [[Werner Herzog]] about his life in outlaw film-making before a live audience.

{{#widget:OmnyFMEpisode|show=the-portal|slug=3-werner-herzog|width=65%}}
{{#widget:YouTube|id=Eua5iPUKw6Y}}
[[File:ThePortal-Ep3 WernerHerzog-EricWeinstein.png|600px|thumb|Eric Weinstein (right) talking with Werner Herzog (left) on episode 3 of The Portal podcast which was conducted in front of a live audience.]]

== Transcript ==
<small>[https://theportal.wiki/images/e/e4/3_Werner_Herzog.vtt Raw transcript file]</small>

'''[00:00:03] Eric:''' <span title="00:00:03"> Hello. </span><span title="00:00:03">You've found The Portal. </span><span title="00:00:04">I'm your host Eric Weinstein, and this will be our second </span><span title="00:00:07">interview episode to be released. </span><span title="00:00:09">I think we have something really remarkable for you today because we </span><span title="00:00:11">have a human being who's led a life that even though he makes movies </span><span title="00:00:15">that are fictional, I would say that his actual nonfiction life is more </span><span title="00:00:19">interesting than any movie he's ever made. </span><span title="00:00:21">This is a person who has been shot on camera. </span><span title="00:00:24">A person who has stolen, who has forged and who's taught other </span><span title="00:00:28">filmmakers to steal and to forge. </span><span title="00:00:32">The person I'm talking about is Werner Herzog. </span><span title="00:00:34">Now, I first became aware of Werner Herzog when I was 16 and </span><span title="00:00:38">just entering the University of Pennsylvania, and a friend of mine </span><span title="00:00:41">said, you've got to see this movie. </span><span title="00:00:43">Fitzcarraldo I said, what is Fitzcarraldo? </span><span title="00:00:46">He says, if nothing else, it's a story about a man so possessed by an </span><span title="00:00:52">idée fixe that he drags a boat over a mountain in the jungle, in order </span><span title="00:00:58">to somehow build an opera house. </span><span title="00:01:00">And the whole thing sounded incredibly mad. </span><span title="00:01:03">And in fact, what was so interesting about this film was that the director </span><span title="00:01:07">actually had to do in real life what the crazy fictional character </span><span title="00:01:11">did inside of the storyline. </span><span title="00:01:15">This led me to a fascination with a today's interview subject Werner Herzog. </span><span title="00:01:20">This is a man who has lived so richly and so profoundly that I actually </span><span title="00:01:25">started to get a different idea about what he was doing as a film maker. </span><span title="00:01:29">The idea that I could not shake was, is that Werner Herzog needed to live </span><span title="00:01:33">so deeply and so profoundly that he had to make movies simply to justify </span><span title="00:01:39">what it meant to be Werner Herzog. </span><span title="00:01:42">Now, I've often asked myself this question, what is it the </span><span title="00:01:44">great generals do between wars? </span><span title="00:01:47">It's hard to imagine, let's say a Patton or a MacArthur in normal times, do they </span><span title="00:01:52">just sit around and open dry cleaners? </span><span title="00:01:55">Do they write essays for their local newspaper. </span><span title="00:01:59">What does a Winston Churchill do if there is no World War II to win? </span><span title="00:02:03">In such a situation I think it's very hard to come up with an answer, but I </span><span title="00:02:07">think that the best answer that I have is, is that these people would make movies. </span><span title="00:02:16">The following interview was recorded in front of a live audience. </span><span title="00:02:19">We joined the conversation in progress. </span><span title="00:02:22">May I just ask, first of all, before I try any theories of the kindness, do </span><span title="00:02:26">you see any clear organizing principle that unifies your output that is sort of </span><span title="00:02:34">subtle and non-obvious to your audience? </span>

'''[00:02:36] Werner:''' <span title="00:02:36"> Yes, I do believe so. </span><span title="00:02:39">People are quite often puzzled about the range of the subjects </span><span title="00:02:43">that have attracted me. </span><span title="00:02:46">There's a world champion ski flyer from Switzerland, and there is a paleolithic </span><span title="00:02:53">cave, and there's a man who moves a ship over a mountain in the Peruvian jungle, </span><span title="00:02:58">and there's a film on the internet, and there's a film, you just name it. </span><span title="00:03:04">And it looks perplexing at first sight. </span><span title="00:03:09">But I do understand, although I don't like to look back at my films too </span><span title="00:03:16">often, I do understand that there's some sort of an architecture of concepts. </span><span title="00:03:23">And that's... </span><span title="00:03:24">You would immediately understand there is a common worldview. </span><span title="00:03:28">Very much is about a worldview and you could probably spot it very, very </span><span title="00:03:37">quickly, if you walked into a room and a TV was playing and there was a film </span><span title="00:03:44">within and you didn't see any credits, probably within two minutes you would </span><span title="00:03:50">understand, this must have been my film. </span><span title="00:03:55">People see it, they understand it, how they do it. </span><span title="00:03:58">I don't know. </span><span title="00:03:59">And how I do create this common world view, I don't know either, </span><span title="00:04:04">but it doesn't really matter. </span>

'''[00:04:07] Eric:''' <span title="00:04:07"> Now, one of the things that I've been very struck by, which is what we </span><span title="00:04:13">all get wrong about Werner Herzog and because many of the stories that come </span><span title="00:04:19">out of these films and these undertakings involve tremendous seeming danger, </span><span title="00:04:26">physical risks, chaos, madness is all the things that are usually associated. </span><span title="00:04:31">I was trying to figure out what it was that those stories might cover up as if </span><span title="00:04:36">sort of cheap icing on a very rich cake. </span><span title="00:04:39">And one of the things that I saw, was what, and correct me if I'm wrong, </span><span title="00:04:42">it seems like you have tremendous concern for the people that you </span><span title="00:04:46">bring out onto these crazy projects for their safety and wellbeing. </span><span title="00:04:51">Am I getting that wrong? </span>

'''[00:04:53] Werner:''' <span title="00:04:53"> No, we shouldn't waste any time of what some people get wrong about me. </span><span title="00:05:00">Doesn't really matter, let them be wrong. </span><span title="00:05:03">But, one of the things that comes up quite often, seems to be an </span><span title="00:05:09">identification of the creator of a story, a creator of a character, </span><span title="00:05:15">namely me, with the qualities that the creator automatically has to have. </span><span title="00:05:23">In other words if I do a film, like Aguirre, the Wrath of God about a </span><span title="00:05:28">demented crazed a conquistador, 1560s in the Peruvian Amazon, people quite </span><span title="00:05:37">often are misled to point out Herzog must have these qualities obsessive </span><span title="00:05:43">in demented and borderline paranoia. </span><span title="00:05:47">And so no day they are, I understand them, but they are not my qualities. </span><span title="00:05:52">They are inventions. </span>

'''[00:05:54] Eric:''' <span title="00:05:54"> But you picked an actor in Klaus Kinski who might, I mean, I </span><span title="00:05:59">would venture to say, did have some of those qualities, is that wrong? </span><span title="00:06:02">And then you actually have the... </span>

'''[00:06:03] Werner:''' <span title="00:06:03"> No, of course he had it. </span><span title="00:06:05">A part of being an actor who was really under the grace of creation </span><span title="00:06:15">to make things that we have not seen before or after on a screen. </span><span title="00:06:20">So, but otherwise, he was the mildest I could express would be, </span><span title="00:06:25">he was the ultimate pestilence, but he was also destructive. </span><span title="00:06:29">He would destroy a set. </span><span title="00:06:32">He would, when we had a, we actually had two plane crashes on </span><span title="00:06:36">Fitzcarraldo, small aircraft, and we didn't know what had happened. </span><span title="00:06:42">We had a very sketchy shortwave radio connection with Iquitos </span><span title="00:06:48">about 1,100 kilometers away and garbled messages would come in. </span><span title="00:06:55">"Plane is down." </span><span title="00:06:56">And we desperately tried, was it nearby? </span><span title="00:06:59">Could we send out a search party or what, who was on board, what had happened? </span><span title="00:07:04">And we had it happen in our camp, sometimes on days where we would start in </span><span title="00:07:10">the afternoon and shoot into the night. </span><span title="00:07:13">Breakfast would be served from hut to hut to hut, and so the </span><span title="00:07:17">last hut would have cold coffee. </span><span title="00:07:20">This morning, by coincident Kinski was the last hut, and I heard it from, </span><span title="00:07:25">from 150 yards away, screaming out. </span><span title="00:07:29">I mean the complete, not just a tantrum. </span><span title="00:07:32">It was just an outburst of rage, because his coffee was lukewarm and he stormed </span><span title="00:07:39">at the place where we were checking on the radio and trying to figure out, </span><span title="00:07:44">and he kept screaming and screaming. </span><span title="00:07:46">I could not calm him down. </span><span title="00:07:48">I could not get him away. </span><span title="00:07:49">I tried to tell him, there's a plane down. </span><span title="00:07:52">You have to keep quiet. </span><span title="00:07:54">We must listen to what has happened. </span><span title="00:07:59">It wouldn't help at all. </span><span title="00:08:01">He would scream and he would scream. </span><span title="00:08:02">He could scream a glass into he could shatter a glass, a wine glass. </span><span title="00:08:10">He, it really, I mean it, I do not exaggerate. </span><span title="00:08:15">And so the only way I could after an hour and a half when he had already </span><span title="00:08:23">froth, hardened froth at his mouth. </span><span title="00:08:27">I went to my hut and I had a little piece of Swiss chocolate left, which people </span><span title="00:08:34">would murder for such a treasure in our camp, and I stepped in front of him and </span><span title="00:08:40">ate this chocolate, and that silenced him. </span><span title="00:08:43">There was, there was something which was stunning. </span>

'''[00:08:46] Eric:''' <span title="00:08:46"> And you knew, you intuited that this would have that effect? </span>

'''[00:08:49] Werner:''' <span title="00:08:49"> I should have had the intuition after five minutes, it took over an hour. </span><span title="00:08:55">So, but, problem is that quite often, qualities of the characters in my </span><span title="00:09:02">films have been super imposed on my own character, or, for example, I've acted in </span><span title="00:09:10">some Hollywood films and some independent films, check Reacher, for example. </span><span title="00:09:15">And I'm playing the real, real dangerous badass bad guy. </span><span title="00:09:21">And I'm very, very dangerous and I had to, and I'm unarmed, and I have no </span><span title="00:09:27">fingers left, and I am blind on one eye. </span><span title="00:09:31">And yet I had to spread terror from the screen, and I did it so well. </span><span title="00:09:38">I did it so well that my reviews were much better than the reviews for Tom Cruise. </span><span title="00:09:46">No, it's true, I am not exaggerating. </span><span title="00:09:49">I was good, but it's not that I can say this kind of vile, </span><span title="00:09:54">dangerous character is really in me. </span>

'''[00:09:59] Eric:''' <span title="00:09:59"> Really? </span>

'''[00:10:00] Werner:''' <span title="00:10:00"> And it became very easy, I did it unprepared, you see, and I have </span><span title="00:10:05">learned that when we teach Fitzcarraldo in the first round of shooting, there </span><span title="00:10:09">was Mick Jagger as a sidekick of the leading character, and Jagger spent </span><span title="00:10:14">some six weeks with us in the jungle. </span><span title="00:10:17">We shot half the film had to stop because the leading character became ill. </span><span title="00:10:22">We had to send him to the States and the doctors wouldn't allow him to </span><span title="00:10:26">return to the jungle, so I knew I had to start all over again and on Jaggers </span><span title="00:10:32">contract, there was not time enough left for doing the whole film all over. </span><span title="00:10:37">I shot the film actually one and a half times. </span><span title="00:10:40">And, what is strange about, this recasting and restarting the whole </span><span title="00:10:52">thing, I knew if I did not find an actor quickly, in such a case, I had no </span><span title="00:10:59">alternative but playing the part myself. </span><span title="00:11:03">Because I would have been credible and I would have been good, not as good as </span><span title="00:11:08">let's say, Mick Jagger and Jason Robards or Kinski and I learned one thing from, </span><span title="00:11:14">from Mick Jagger, which astonished me. </span><span title="00:11:17">He took me once a backstage when they were recording, and I was there </span><span title="00:11:26">and he was arguing with somebody about some totally trivial things. </span><span title="00:11:32">Completely and utterly trivial things, and also an on my set, he </span><span title="00:11:38">was arguing about the mineral water or about the per diem or something. </span><span title="00:11:44">And I said to him "Mick, the camera is rolling." </span><span title="00:11:47">And he looked at me and he sees we are already doing it. </span><span title="00:11:51">And he steps three steps in front of the camera, and within </span><span title="00:11:57">three steps he becomes a demon. </span><span title="00:12:01">From a trivial, trivial little bickering, mediocre kind of character, </span><span title="00:12:07">his steps in front and he is a demon. </span><span title="00:12:10">And in that, in a way, I learned that from him. </span><span title="00:12:15">And, I didn't prepare myself. </span><span title="00:12:18">I, when I stepped in front of the camera, I knew there was only one thing, be </span><span title="00:12:24">calm and be frightening and I can do it. </span><span title="00:12:29">Yeah. </span><span title="00:12:30">And I would accept it only because I knew I could do it. </span>

'''[00:12:33] Eric:''' <span title="00:12:33"> So you're really not the ultimate bad-ass, because... </span>

'''[00:12:38] Werner:''' <span title="00:12:38"> I can't... </span><span title="00:12:39">Maybe I am, but unbeknownst to me. </span>

'''[00:12:42] Eric:''' <span title="00:12:42"> Well, okay. </span><span title="00:12:43">It feels to me like I was just watching a video of you being interviewed by </span><span title="00:12:48">the BBC and improbably you're shot in the abdomen while being interviewed. </span><span title="00:12:55">And you seem to be somewhat irritated that the interviewer is treating this as </span><span title="00:13:00">a big deal, and like, otherwise, how would I know that you wear Paisley underwear? </span><span title="00:13:06">I mean you take your pants down- </span>

'''[00:13:08] Werner:''' <span title="00:13:08"> Yeah, they wanted to see it. </span>

'''[00:13:12] Eric:''' <span title="00:13:12"> -you're bleeding, and you're treating it like, why is every... </span><span title="00:13:13">It's not that big of a bullet. </span><span title="00:13:14">That was your attitude. </span>

'''[00:13:16] Werner:''' <span title="00:13:16"> No, actually I said something more beautiful. </span><span title="00:13:18">I said, this is an insignificant bullet. </span>

'''[00:13:21] Eric:''' <span title="00:13:21"> Yeah, that's true. </span>

'''[00:13:22] Werner:''' <span title="00:13:22"> So, and I knew it had not perforated everything. </span><span title="00:13:28">It went through my, jacket in the catalog in the pocket and everything, </span><span title="00:13:32">but didn't perforate into my intestines. </span><span title="00:13:34">So that was insignificant, but they immediately hit the ground, the camera </span><span title="00:13:44">fled and I had the feeling, "Stay, let's finish at least the sentence." </span>

'''[00:13:48] Eric:''' <span title="00:13:48"> Cause it was great video. </span><span title="00:13:50">I mean... </span>

'''[00:13:51] Werner:''' <span title="00:13:51"> For them it was great video, it... </span>

'''[00:13:52] Eric:''' <span title="00:13:52"> No, it would've been, but what I'm trying to suggest, sir, is that </span><span title="00:13:56">you are the unreliable narrator. </span><span title="00:13:58">You are actually.... </span>

'''[00:13:59] Werner:''' <span title="00:13:59"> No, no, no. </span><span title="00:13:59">I made sense. </span><span title="00:14:00">No, no, no. </span><span title="00:14:02">I am the one who makes sense. </span><span title="00:14:03">I am the one who puts order into a chaotic situation. </span>

'''[00:14:07] Eric:''' <span title="00:14:07"> That's what you did. </span><span title="00:14:08">But when I'm, well, what I'm saying is, is that when your autonomic </span><span title="00:14:11">nervous system is triggered. </span><span title="00:14:13">It barely registers. </span><span title="00:14:14">You've been shot in the abdomen. </span>

'''[00:14:16] Werner:''' <span title="00:14:16"> It registered, it hurt. </span><span title="00:14:18">It hurt a year because when I was laughing hard, it was still hurting. </span><span title="00:14:24">Yes, but there's a sense of duty... </span>

'''[00:14:26] Eric:''' <span title="00:14:26"> Which I very much appreciate, but that's very unusual. </span><span title="00:14:30">These are real... </span>

'''[00:14:30] Werner:''' <span title="00:14:30"> Yes, but it's part of being a good soldier of cinema that I </span><span title="00:14:34">tried to be, a sense of duty, a sense of, you have to be reliable. </span><span title="00:14:41">You have to hold an outpost that others have given up. </span><span title="00:14:45">It's loyalty,, and it's loyalty to the entire crew that was there. </span><span title="00:14:51">However, they argued that we should call the police right away. </span><span title="00:14:56">And they said, let's not do it because do you want to spend the next six hours </span><span title="00:15:01">in a police station to file charges and do you want to see helicopter </span><span title="00:15:07">circling there, and do you want to see a SWAT team in 10 minutes flat? </span>

'''[00:15:11] Eric:''' <span title="00:15:11"> Right. </span>

'''[00:15:11] Werner:''' <span title="00:15:11"> Do you want to see that? </span><span title="00:15:13">My answer is no, but it's okay, let's move out of the danger zone. </span><span title="00:15:19">Because the man with a rifle was still somewhere hiding on a terrace, </span><span title="00:15:25">and hiding now inside the building. </span><span title="00:15:28">Get out of there, but let's continue. </span><span title="00:15:31">Let's continue this all your team has come from the UK and </span><span title="00:15:35">you have to return tomorrow. </span><span title="00:15:37">Let's get over with it. </span><span title="00:15:40">So it's a sense of duty. </span>

'''[00:15:41] Eric:''' <span title="00:15:41"> I appreciate that very much, but I mean, what you're talking about </span><span title="00:15:44">is the highest levels of discipline and military style leadership. </span><span title="00:15:49">I mean, this goes far beyond... </span>

'''[00:15:52] Werner:''' <span title="00:15:52"> Yes, but you should be careful about confusing it with military </span><span title="00:15:58">discipline where there's some sort of blind adherence to given orders. </span><span title="00:16:04">I do think, I do think what I'm doing, and I do not ask anyone to </span><span title="00:16:10">do blindly something in front of the camera, but there is a safety margin. </span><span title="00:16:15">Whenever things are difficult in then, let's say borderline dangerous, I would </span><span title="00:16:22">always do it myself first for the actor. </span><span title="00:16:25">I would go through the rapids with a small raft to see, does a rafter </span><span title="00:16:32">survive these three consecutive rapids. </span>

'''[00:16:36] Eric:''' <span title="00:16:36"> Right. </span>

'''[00:16:36] Werner:''' <span title="00:16:36"> Or a very simple thing, Christian Bale in a Rescue Dawn, he plays a chairman </span><span title="00:16:44">board and a Navy pilot who is shot down, 40 minutes in his first mission over</span><span title="00:16:51">Vietnam or Laos, he actually was the only American POW who managed to escape from </span><span title="00:16:58">Viet Cong captivity, an incredible story. </span><span title="00:17:04">And Christian Bale who plays a part of him and they're starving to death, </span><span title="00:17:09">almost starving to death, and they get some food that is infested by hundreds </span><span title="00:17:15">and hundreds of wriggling maggots. </span><span title="00:17:19">And we used maggots that native people would eat, but they would roast </span><span title="00:17:24">them, not alive and still wriggling. </span><span title="00:17:28">So, and I said to Christian, that was what Dieter Dengler, the real character, told </span><span title="00:17:34">me they had to do, there are nutrients that lot of nutrients in these maggots. </span><span title="00:17:38">I ate it. </span><span title="00:17:39">And I said to Christian, you know what? </span><span title="00:17:44">Give me the plate and give me a spoon. </span><span title="00:17:46">I'm going to eat a few spoonfuls, which I did. </span><span title="00:17:51">And he said, oh, come on, stop it. </span><span title="00:17:54">Stop it. </span><span title="00:17:54">I, let's roll the camera. </span><span title="00:17:56">I'm going to get over it quickly. </span><span title="00:17:59">So he did. </span><span title="00:18:00">And that was one of the very, very few, moments of controversy </span><span title="00:18:07">between the two of us because I told him and he didn't hear it. </span><span title="00:18:12">Apparently I told him, Christian, you know what, you stop eating when </span><span title="00:18:16">you really have, when you had it. </span><span title="00:18:19">And he keeps eating, eating, eating until the plate is empty. </span><span title="00:18:23">And then I say, cut. </span><span title="00:18:25">And he said, why didn't you say cut before? </span><span title="00:18:28">Why? </span><span title="00:18:28">What happened? </span><span title="00:18:29">And I said, Chris, you are the one who should have cut, set cuts. </span><span title="00:18:33">But he didn't hear it. </span><span title="00:18:35">And he was kind of miffed, but those, those moments say they do </span><span title="00:18:41">happen, and the unexpected on a set. </span><span title="00:18:49">That's movies. </span>

'''[00:18:50] Eric:''' <span title="00:18:50"> Yeah, right. </span><span title="00:18:54">I guess those moments do happen. </span><span title="00:18:56">So, it does strike me though that... </span>

'''[00:18:58] Werner:''' <span title="00:18:58"> I tested it first, you see, I would always test it first. </span>

'''[00:19:03] Eric:''' <span title="00:19:03"> It seems like that's, you know, the Israelis have a theory of leadership, </span><span title="00:19:07">which is called follow me, where they take the highest value person on the </span><span title="00:19:11">team that the general or the Colonel, and he goes into danger first because </span><span title="00:19:16">the morale of the troops is so much heightened when you see a leader saying, </span><span title="00:19:21">I will actually take that kind of a risk. </span><span title="00:19:24">That seems to be a part of how you get fanatical loyalty. </span>

'''[00:19:26] Werner:''' <span title="00:19:26"> It's a very long tradition. </span><span title="00:19:28">Alexander the Great, for example, always on foot with his soldiers. </span><span title="00:19:34">He would not ride on his horse. </span><span title="00:19:36">He would be on foot thousands of miles. </span><span title="00:19:39">He would be the first to climb the ramparts on a ladder. </span><span title="00:19:45">He would be the one who when they were thirsty and almost dying from thirst. </span><span title="00:19:51">One soldier collected a helmet full of water, bit by bit, drop by drop and when </span><span title="00:19:58">the thirst was at its worst, this footman comes and steps in front of Alexander and </span>

'''[00:20:05] says:''' <span title="00:20:05"> "I saved this for you, drink this." </span><span title="00:20:09">And Alexander looks at it in, spills it away, and he says too much for one, </span><span title="00:20:14">too little for all and marches on. </span><span title="00:20:17">So that's leadership. </span><span title="00:20:20">Well, Hannibal who crossed the Alps on elephants, he would </span><span title="00:20:24">sleep with his soldiers at the outpost wrapped in his coat. </span><span title="00:20:31">And he would lose an eye crossing an ice cold river south of the Alps, </span><span title="00:20:39">and he would do things that, nobody else in his army would ever do. </span>

'''[00:20:47] Eric:''' <span title="00:20:47"> Do you feel that this aspect of leadership, of putting oneself in the </span><span title="00:20:51">greatest situations of risk and harm is... </span>

'''[00:20:57] Werner:''' <span title="00:20:57"> No. </span><span title="00:20:57">You avoid harm if possible. </span>

'''[00:20:59] Eric:''' <span title="00:20:59"> Well, of course, but... </span>

'''[00:20:59] Werner:''' <span title="00:20:59"> You eliminate harm before it even appears. </span><span title="00:21:04">You see, you have to be prudent, and in any kind of business, including </span><span title="00:21:09">the business of warfare, you have to evaluate a situation and you have to </span><span title="00:21:16">try to avoid the danger for anyone. </span><span title="00:21:20">The leader and the troop, you better stay out of it. </span><span title="00:21:25">And you use all sorts of military tricked trickery, deceit, you use ambushes. </span><span title="00:21:35">You use the so called cowardly things. </span><span title="00:21:39">And before you really put anyone into very grave danger. </span><span title="00:21:46">Eliminate whatever you can. </span><span title="00:21:48">Sometimes you can't eliminate everything but cheat... </span>

'''[00:21:53] Eric:''' <span title="00:21:53"> Of course, of course, and lie... </span>

'''[00:21:56] Werner:''' <span title="00:21:56"> Lie and trick. </span><span title="00:21:57">I liked, by the way, it comes to main Jesse Ventura, who used to be a bodyguard </span><span title="00:22:03">of the rolling stones, by the way, and he used to be a a studio wrestler, who played </span><span title="00:22:10">the bad guy, by the way, in the ring. </span><span title="00:22:13">Completely stylized. </span><span title="00:22:15">And he became governor of Minnesota. </span><span title="00:22:18">And I always liked him for his down to earth approach. </span><span title="00:22:21">And he said once about his time in the ring as a wrestler. </span><span title="00:22:27">It's just one of these WrestleMania people. </span><span title="00:22:30">And he said win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat. </span><span title="00:22:40">So I really like him for that. </span>

'''[00:22:45] Eric:''' <span title="00:22:45"> Yeah. </span><span title="00:22:47">So this is one of the things that I found most enduring about your </span><span title="00:22:51">approach is that you teach film in this completely different fashion. </span><span title="00:22:58">It's, let's be honest, you're an outlaw before you're a film maker and </span><span title="00:23:01">you say to your students, you have to be prepared to steal, to forge, to </span><span title="00:23:06">pick locks, to do whatever it takes. </span>

'''[00:23:09] Werner:''' <span title="00:23:09"> Forge documents, but still, you see, I wouldn't say steal. </span><span title="00:23:13">I have stolen once in a while, but more expropriation than stealing, than theft, </span><span title="00:23:19">like my first camera was expropriated from an institution, but do anything </span><span title="00:23:26">that's outside of the legal norms. </span><span title="00:23:31">As long as it as it does not hurt anyone. </span><span title="00:23:34">And foraging, a shooting permit in a country that has a military dictatorship </span><span title="00:23:42">is something fine and you should do it. </span><span title="00:23:44">You for forage, forage you must. </span>

'''[00:23:47] Eric:''' <span title="00:23:47"> Yeah. </span>

'''[00:23:51] Werner:''' <span title="00:23:51"> So you have to do it sometimes. </span>

'''[00:23:52] Eric:''' <span title="00:23:52"> Definitely try this at home. </span><span title="00:23:54">All right, so you break into countries on a student visa that </span><span title="00:24:01">might severely punish you if they found out that you were filming. </span><span title="00:24:04">You did this in China. </span>

'''[00:24:07] Werner:''' <span title="00:24:07"> No, not, well, yes, I did in China filming in the Western most part, near </span><span title="00:24:15">Kashgar, where there was an extremely high military and police presence, and I was </span><span title="00:24:21">filming with Michael Shannon, but we had no shooting permit, no working permit. </span><span title="00:24:27">We just went out to a local market. </span><span title="00:24:31">A very traditional market of weak word tribesmen a cattle market. </span><span title="00:24:37">And there was the real obvious thing was that we had a contraption built on </span><span title="00:24:46">the body of Michael Shannon, a tripod that held a camera in front of his face. </span><span title="00:24:53">So when he walks into a crowd, everybody who walks by would inevitably </span><span title="00:24:58">turn around and look after him. </span><span title="00:25:00">I wanted this effect. </span><span title="00:25:02">Everybody staring at him once he's moving through a crowd and he said to </span><span title="00:25:08">me, I'm going to do it as long as you're around next to me, because if I get </span><span title="00:25:15">arrested, you should be arrested as well. </span><span title="00:25:17">And I said, fine, let's do it. </span><span title="00:25:19">And because it was so brazen, it was so brazen that nobody actually stopped us. </span><span title="00:25:27">There was a lot of police, and when you have one or two police people, </span><span title="00:25:32">then it's dangerous because they would arrest you or they would </span><span title="00:25:36">stop you at least in check you out. </span><span title="00:25:38">But if you have 17, 18, 20 of them. </span><span title="00:25:42">There's a strange psychological reflex. </span><span title="00:25:46">Everybody thinks the other one will stop you and you walk straight through the </span><span title="00:25:51">middle whether, and I keep saying where the enemy comes it at its thickest, walk </span><span title="00:25:57">straight through there and I look into some sort of a vague distance as if I had </span><span title="00:26:03">spotted a friend 50 yards away, and I'd walk with this gaze upon them, and while </span><span title="00:26:10">I pass, I may say something in my variant dialect, I say "Hast du einen Hartig </span><span title="00:26:15">gesehen?", have you seen my friend Hartig? </span><span title="00:26:19">And they step aside and I'm out. </span><span title="00:26:22">So you have to understand the heart of men, and you have to </span><span title="00:26:27">understand the, the way police would react, and what would they do? </span><span title="00:26:33">It's so brazen that nobody of the Hun Chinese police would ever suspect we </span><span title="00:26:43">were working without any permits at all. </span>

'''[00:26:49] Eric:''' <span title="00:26:49"> Yeah. </span><span title="00:26:49">Now in our time, there's this mania for truth and authenticity, and for </span><span title="00:26:59">acknowledging that it is always the group and never the individual that matters. </span><span title="00:27:03">Th the so-called great man theory of history is certainly at its cultural low. </span><span title="00:27:10">And yet here you are talking to us about the need to deceive, to break the </span><span title="00:27:16">law, and to affirm the violent act of creation in a very strong leadership </span><span title="00:27:23">context in which you're taking on all of this additional risk just to in part </span><span title="00:27:28">inspire and protect your people even. </span><span title="00:27:33">You seem to be a man completely out of time with the current era and it </span><span title="00:27:37">seems to suit you fine, is that wrong? </span>

'''[00:27:39] Werner:''' <span title="00:27:39"> Not really, there are few of us, but I wish there were more. </span><span title="00:27:44">But of course, what we are doing in filmmaking is not always </span><span title="00:27:51">based on boardroom decision. </span><span title="00:27:53">The way we shape the dialogue today in the Hollywood industry is </span><span title="00:27:58">determined by boardroom decisions. </span><span title="00:28:01">And that's why movie-making has become so stale and so </span><span title="00:28:06">uninteresting and so predictable. </span><span title="00:28:08">So if you do the most the wildest of the stories and that's always what counts. </span><span title="00:28:14">You see, I do not step outside the boundaries of legality. </span><span title="00:28:19">It has to do with a caliber of your quest, with the depth of your story, </span><span title="00:28:25">with the vision that you are pursuing. </span><span title="00:28:28">If that has real, real depth and you know, it as enduring depth, then </span><span title="00:28:36">you have the task and the duty to do the things that are necessary. </span><span title="00:28:43">As long, as I said, as you do not damage or hurt anyone. </span>

'''[00:28:49] Eric:''' <span title="00:28:49"> You are taking a fair amount of responsibility. </span><span title="00:28:51">We had Jim Watson come to this office and he's the co-discoverer </span><span title="00:28:56">of the three dimensional structure of DNA, of Watson and... </span>

'''[00:29:00] Werner:''' <span title="00:29:00"> Oh yeah.. </span>

'''[00:29:02] Eric:''' <span title="00:29:02"> Yeah. </span><span title="00:29:03">But he said something which was, you know, I found very </span><span title="00:29:06">disturbing, but also very sensible. </span><span title="00:29:08">He said, you're given about five opportunities to really </span><span title="00:29:12">level up in your life. </span><span title="00:29:13">This was how he saw it. </span><span title="00:29:15">And he said, you have to take each one of those, even though sometimes each </span><span title="00:29:20">of them comes with an opportunity where somebody may be put at risk or hurt. </span><span title="00:29:25">And I was curious. </span><span title="00:29:27">You have a very strong relationship with risk where you're both putting people </span><span title="00:29:32">at risk and trying to make sure you put them at risk as little as possible. </span><span title="00:29:36">If both of those are true, do you believe that, let's say Watson was </span><span title="00:29:40">correct, that you have to take these opportunities even if they do put others </span><span title="00:29:43">at risk, or do you really have a no harm? </span>

'''[00:29:46] Werner:''' <span title="00:29:46"> Well, I think it's more than five opportunities, these things I've </span><span title="00:29:52">seen a hundred times, these moments, and risk-taking per se, has no great value. </span><span title="00:30:02">It depends on what you're doing and what kind of purpose it serves. </span><span title="00:30:08">And it's not a quality, per se, to take risks. </span><span title="00:30:13">I try to avoid risks, and you see, my proof that I have been prudent </span><span title="00:30:22">circumspect, and well-organized is that in over 70 films, not a single </span><span title="00:30:31">one of my actors ever was hurt. </span><span title="00:30:34">Not one. </span><span title="00:30:35">I was hurt sometimes. </span><span title="00:30:37">Sometimes it has happened that some very close collaborator physically next to </span><span title="00:30:43">me, like a cinematographer with a 20 kilo, a handheld camera at that time </span><span title="00:30:49">heavy, flies through the air on the deck of a ship that bangs into a rock. </span><span title="00:30:56">And we were flying some 10 meters, and he bangs with his hand on the deck, </span><span title="00:31:02">and the camera split his hand apart. </span><span title="00:31:04">So yes, it happens in, he didn't mind, by the way. </span>

'''[00:31:08] Eric:''' <span title="00:31:08"> Well, he volunteered. </span><span title="00:31:09">Am I right that he... </span>

'''[00:31:10] Werner:''' <span title="00:31:10"> Of course he did, every single one.. </span>

'''[00:31:12] Eric:''' <span title="00:31:12"> You said, who's coming with me? </span><span title="00:31:13">Nobody has to. </span>

'''[00:31:15] Werner:''' <span title="00:31:15"> Yeah, sure. </span><span title="00:31:16">And actually in this case, when we went with cameras through the rapids, that </span><span title="00:31:23">and we had shot the sequence with cameras on the, there's no real shores, but in </span><span title="00:31:31">the rocks on either sides of these rapids. </span><span title="00:31:35">I was even pushed by some collaborators. </span><span title="00:31:38">We should have a camera on board. </span><span title="00:31:40">I said, really? </span><span title="00:31:41">Yes, of course. </span><span title="00:31:41">I see that, but we do not know what's going to happen. </span><span title="00:31:45">It may sink. </span><span title="00:31:46">What happens then? </span><span title="00:31:48">The ship probably is not going to sink because we established it with a lot of </span><span title="00:31:55">very, very solid air chambers in there. </span><span title="00:31:58">It's probably wouldn't have sunk even under the worst case scenarios. </span>

'''[00:32:06] Eric:''' <span title="00:32:06"> Let me ask you a very, very difficult question then. </span><span title="00:32:09">Assume that you were trying to make Fitzcarraldo, in which you drag this </span><span title="00:32:13">steamer over a mountain and it's not the year 1982, but it's some year, </span><span title="00:32:20">maybe around now, maybe a few years in the future where it's possible to do </span><span title="00:32:23">this completely with computer generated imagery so that you could do it in CGI. </span><span title="00:32:29">Now my question would be this. </span><span title="00:32:31">Would, if it produced the same visual effect as you did in Fitzcarraldo, </span><span title="00:32:38">would it be worth doing if it could be done cheaply and safely? </span>

'''[00:32:42] Werner:''' <span title="00:32:42"> No, it doesn't it doesn't create the same effect. </span><span title="00:32:46">And even the five year old, six year old viewers know it, this was a digital </span><span title="00:32:52">effect and you will always know it. </span><span title="00:32:56">I don't think that digital effects will ever create some sort of an equal </span><span title="00:33:04">experience, maybe to some degree visually. </span><span title="00:33:08">But, you see, moving a ship over a mountain means you're </span><span title="00:33:15">exposing yourself to things that are unthinkable and unexpected. </span><span title="00:33:21">You incorporate, in your approach, the totally unknown and the </span><span title="00:33:28">totally unknown invades you and the unexpected and the unthinkable invades </span><span title="00:33:33">you every hour, and your create something, an authenticity of story. </span><span title="00:33:40">Not only visual effect, you create an authenticity of </span><span title="00:33:44">event that is unparalleled. </span><span title="00:33:47">And it's unparalleled by anyone who is sitting on a computer and creates </span><span title="00:33:53">a steam belt moving up on a hill. </span><span title="00:33:57">It does not, and it will not do so in the future. </span>

'''[00:34:01] Eric:''' <span title="00:34:01"> You're quite confident of that. </span>

'''[00:34:04] Werner:''' <span title="00:34:04"> Because the experience of a thing rooted in reality cannot be replaced. </span><span title="00:34:16">It can be substituted. </span><span title="00:34:18">It can be somehow paralleled in a way by an artificial world, by digital effects. </span><span title="00:34:27">Until today, I would still insist I should, if it's me who does </span><span title="00:34:33">it, I should move the ship. </span><span title="00:34:36">In one piece, 360 tons. </span>

'''[00:34:39] Eric:''' <span title="00:34:39"> Right. </span>

'''[00:34:40] Werner:''' <span title="00:34:40"> And let the others do their stuff and it will be inferior to mine. </span>

'''[00:34:45] Eric:''' <span title="00:34:45"> Well, this is just it. </span><span title="00:34:47">I mean, you mentioned professional wrestling and Jesse Ventura and, you know, </span><span title="00:34:53">there is a theory amongst our group that maybe professional wrestling is a lot more </span><span title="00:34:58">real than anyone really wants to believe, that it's commonly thought to be fake. </span><span title="00:35:04">One interpretation of your works sir, is that you are making many more </span><span title="00:35:09">documentaries than you claim to be because in fact, in something like </span><span title="00:35:12">Fitzcarraldo, it's a fictional story about a man moving a ship over a </span><span title="00:35:17">mountain made by a real man who moved a real ship over a real mountain. </span><span title="00:35:21">And I remember when it came out in 1982, I was in college, we were electrified </span><span title="00:35:26">by this concept that if it had been done in CGI and we had known that it </span><span title="00:35:31">had been in CGI, we would not have been that interested in the story. </span><span title="00:35:34">But it was the fact that there was an insane man moving a ship </span><span title="00:35:38">over a mountain in reality... </span>

'''[00:35:39] Werner:''' <span title="00:35:39"> Clinically sane man towing a ship over a mountain. </span>

'''[00:35:42] Eric:''' <span title="00:35:42"> Sorry, I don't want to... </span><span title="00:35:44">You want to cast to the aspersions, but functionally, sir, it is a crazy quest. </span><span title="00:35:50">And you spoke about it in terms... </span>

'''[00:35:52] Werner:''' <span title="00:35:52"> No, no, it's not a crazy quest. </span>

'''[00:35:53] Eric:''' <span title="00:35:53"> Did you speak of it in those terms at the time? </span>

'''[00:35:55] Werner:''' <span title="00:35:55"> No, no, no. </span><span title="00:35:55">It's not a crazy quest, it was doable. </span><span title="00:35:58">And I do the doable, you see, you do not go out and try to, let's </span><span title="00:36:06">say, go to Mars and spend there half a year on Mars in covering... </span><span title="00:36:12">in getting footage. </span><span title="00:36:13">You will fail. </span><span title="00:36:15">It's not going to work. </span><span title="00:36:16">And we will see the technological utopia is coming to an end in our very century, </span><span title="00:36:24">like we saw social utopias coming to an inevitable end in the last century. </span><span title="00:36:32">Communism paradise on earth. </span><span title="00:36:35">Nazism, a master race, dominating the planet and on. </span><span title="00:36:41">So we will see... </span><span title="00:36:42">So do the doable. </span><span title="00:36:43">Do the doable, and I knew it was doable because I had figured out how </span><span title="00:36:49">to move a very, very heavy object in one piece on top of a hill for example. </span>

'''[00:36:55] Eric:''' <span title="00:36:55"> Trying to figure out the how the ancients moved... </span>

'''[00:36:57] Werner:''' <span title="00:36:57"> Yes, neolithic people. </span>

'''[00:36:59] Eric:''' <span title="00:36:59"> Say more about how you solved that, you saw that as a puzzle. </span>

'''[00:37:03] Werner:''' <span title="00:37:03"> I was searching a coastline of Brittany for a completely different </span><span title="00:37:07">movie and I ended up at night when it was already dark at Carnac. </span><span title="00:37:13">It's 4,000 menhirs, these slabs of stone erected in parallel lines. </span><span title="00:37:19">Hill, uphill, downhill, uphill, down. </span><span title="00:37:21">It's, it's stunning. </span><span title="00:37:23">In what I saw in the headlights was stunning. </span><span title="00:37:26">And I slept in the car, and next morning I see there's a little kiosk. </span><span title="00:37:31">They sold brochures, and in the brochure, it's written that this </span><span title="00:37:36">couldn't have been done by neolithic people, they didn't have any technology. </span><span title="00:37:43">Yes, they had a rope and things like this. </span><span title="00:37:46">It could have been only alien astronauts, and I thought, bullshit, I can let... </span><span title="00:37:54">I will not move from this place until I as a niolithic person could do it. </span><span title="00:38:02">So what I would do is, let's assume I have the rock already, 300-400 tons. </span><span title="00:38:09">I would need disciplined men to build a ramp, but maybe one </span><span title="00:38:14">kilometer ramp, which has hardly any inclination, which is almost flat. </span><span title="00:38:20">At the end. </span><span title="00:38:20">It would end up in a 10 meter high hill and I would take a crater hole </span><span title="00:38:27">into the Hill and then I would move. </span><span title="00:38:30">Then I would move the stone on oak trunks, on hardened oak trunks, and it's very easy </span><span title="00:38:40">to move it, either with the turnstiles and ropes, or pushing it in a way with levers. </span><span title="00:38:48">And at the end it would drop into the crater hole and then you would have </span><span title="00:38:53">it erect with a heavier part up, and then you would remove the hill until, </span><span title="00:38:59">let's say, it was sticking only into two meters of grounded, harden the </span><span title="00:39:04">ground, so you would have it erected. </span><span title="00:39:07">And I kept puzzling about one, a menhir, the heaviest ever, 1100 </span><span title="00:39:17">tons heavy, near the coastal place Locmariaquer, not too far from Carnac. </span><span title="00:39:24">And this stone, this slab, was broken into four pieces. </span><span title="00:39:30">In the major, the biggest of all pieces, at least 600-700 tons heavy, was aligned </span><span title="00:39:38">in one direction, and a little bit further out, the rest of the fragmentation </span><span title="00:39:43">was perfectly aligned in one line. </span><span title="00:39:46">So why does this happen, if that stone falls and breaks, it will </span><span title="00:39:52">align the fragments, but it didn't. </span><span title="00:39:55">So I think what has happened is that they moved the stone, dropped </span><span title="00:40:00">it into a hole, and it broke. </span><span title="00:40:03">It broke at the rim, and the smaller fragments aligned, and thousands </span><span title="00:40:09">of years later due to erosion, some of these menhirs, fall over, topple </span><span title="00:40:15">over, and it toppled over in a different, in the wrong direction. </span><span title="00:40:20">So an accident, a neolithic accident, which must have happened, </span><span title="00:40:25">spoke to my as if it was proof of my way, how I would do it. </span><span title="00:40:31">And that's how I moved the ship over the mountain. </span>

'''[00:40:35] Eric:''' <span title="00:40:35"> Wow. </span>

'''[00:40:36] Werner:''' <span title="00:40:36"> So, and I knew it was doable. </span><span title="00:40:38">If it was doable for neolithic people 7,000 years ago, I can </span><span title="00:40:44">do the same thing as well. </span><span title="00:40:47">I have no doubt whatsoever. </span><span title="00:40:50">And in an ideal case, you would, according to primitive laws of </span><span title="00:40:56">physics, you could have one single child pulling it over the mountain. </span><span title="00:41:01">Let's say you introduced a pulley system of 10,000 fold returns. </span><span title="00:41:08">You pull on a string five miles until the ship moves 50 yards, and the </span><span title="00:41:16">child could pull it over a mountain. </span><span title="00:41:20">So you have to think you have to think, the bold ideas, but also those </span><span title="00:41:28">that are outside the common trend. </span><span title="00:41:31">It can only have been the alien astronauts that I showed you </span><span title="00:41:39">because I'm very proud of it. </span><span title="00:41:41">You should try to get hold of it because it's very interesting. </span><span title="00:41:46">It's called the Vanishing Area Paradox. </span><span title="00:41:49">I keep it in my agenda all the time, and it was published </span><span title="00:41:53">in the Scientific American. </span><span title="00:41:57">And it's very strange, you have a configuration of elements of </span><span title="00:42:03">pieces, and when you rearrange the configuration of these, all of a sudden </span><span title="00:42:10">there's an empty space of something that has filled out the entire space </span><span title="00:42:15">without a millimeter in between. </span><span title="00:42:19">And I kept thinking about it because it defies all my experience with reality. </span><span title="00:42:28">So within my reality, it is unthinkable, it is impossible. </span><span title="00:42:33">So, and I kept thinking about it and I was misled. </span><span title="00:42:36">The whole thing is a hoax. </span><span title="00:42:38">It turns out it's a hoax, it's fraudulent, and it gives it a certain veracity because </span><span title="00:42:47">it was posed this Vanishing Area Paradox. </span><span title="00:42:52">The question is posed in the scientific American, you do not believe that they </span><span title="00:42:57">are cheating you, and they cheat you. </span><span title="00:43:00">And what is happening is when you look at it very precisely, the area where all </span><span title="00:43:07">of a sudden in the middle there is an empty space, has been artificially made </span><span title="00:43:12">slightly larger by giving slight, slight more angles in the straight lines, and </span><span title="00:43:19">summing up creates a little empty space. </span>

'''[00:43:22] Eric:''' <span title="00:43:22"> Yeah. </span>

'''[00:43:23] Werner:''' <span title="00:43:23"> And I solved it myself because I thought, I cannot solve it because </span><span title="00:43:32">it defies my sense of reality, and the sense of reality of everyone around me. </span><span title="00:43:39">Something is wrong. </span><span title="00:43:42">What could be wrong. </span><span title="00:43:44">What could be wrong. </span><span title="00:43:46">And I started to check, and one of the questions I asked myself, could it be that </span><span title="00:43:53">this is a hoax, that this is a fraud, and if it's a fraud, how do they cheat you? </span><span title="00:44:00">How do they cheat your senses? </span><span title="00:44:02">Senses of observation in this case. </span>

'''[00:44:06] Eric:''' <span title="00:44:06"> Well, that touches on something that fascinated me. </span><span title="00:44:09">There's a quote of yours where apparently you are facing a booing audience. </span><span title="00:44:13">Booing at you and you had the sense to say to them, you are all wrong. </span>

'''[00:44:19] Werner:''' <span title="00:44:19"> Sure, and they were all wrong. </span>

'''[00:44:21] Eric:''' <span title="00:44:21"> They were all wrong. </span>

'''[00:44:22] Werner:''' <span title="00:44:22"> Yes. </span>

'''[00:44:22] Eric:''' <span title="00:44:22"> What is it in you that has the courage to stand up to seemingly, </span><span title="00:44:29">I don't know, arbitrary levels of negativity to problems that other </span><span title="00:44:34">people think are insoluble, where they have to invoke ancient aliens. </span><span title="00:44:38">There's something so disagreeable about your personality that you're </span><span title="00:44:43">capable of shepherding an idea through that much negativity. </span><span title="00:44:47">What trait is that? </span>

'''[00:44:51] Werner:''' <span title="00:44:51"> Well, it was a specific case when I was filming the fires </span><span title="00:44:55">in Kuwait in the first Gulf war when Saddam Hussein's retreating armies </span><span title="00:45:05">set every single oil well on fire. </span><span title="00:45:08">And I filmed it in a way that it looks as if it was shot on </span><span title="00:45:12">a, like a science fiction film. </span><span title="00:45:14">It cannot be our planet. </span><span title="00:45:15">And yet we know it must have been filmed on our planet. </span><span title="00:45:19">And, so it's highly aesthetic, highly stylized, and in the immediate outcry </span><span title="00:45:32">was a steady sizing of the horror. </span><span title="00:45:36">But it wasn't really horror, it was not horror for any human being. </span><span title="00:45:40">Nobody got burnt. </span><span title="00:45:41">Of course, it was a crime against creation itself, obscuring the </span><span title="00:45:46">sky for a wide, wide area, and something that should not happen. </span><span title="00:45:52">Not only a crime against the human race, it was a crime against creation. </span><span title="00:46:01">And this screaming, and people actually spat at me when I walked </span><span title="00:46:06">through the central island. </span><span title="00:46:08">That somehow reinforced my resolve, and I stepped up and I said Dante in </span><span title="00:46:15">his Inferno has done exactly the same. </span><span title="00:46:18">Hieronymus Bosch has done exactly the same in his hellish visions </span><span title="00:46:24">and Goya in his Los desatres de la guerra has done the same thing. </span><span title="00:46:30">And then in the end, I said, and you are all wrong. </span><span title="00:46:33">So do we have to burn the book, the divine comedy now, do we have to? </span><span title="00:46:41">Of course we don't. </span><span title="00:46:43">So indeed, there's an amount of certainty in me that and it's not </span><span title="00:46:51">really anything that I can say was bold. </span><span title="00:46:54">It was totally natural to say that. </span>

'''[00:46:58] Eric:''' <span title="00:46:58"> Yeah. </span><span title="00:46:58">I mean to me, it sort of strikes me as, we need people to inspire us by showing </span><span title="00:47:04">us that it's not only possible, that it's necessary to stand up to large </span><span title="00:47:10">numbers of people inside of a crowd. </span><span title="00:47:12">Now, one of the things that... </span>

'''[00:47:13] Werner:''' <span title="00:47:13"> I could have, it was literally the entire crowd... </span>

'''[00:47:16] Eric:''' <span title="00:47:16"> The entire crowd. </span>

'''[00:47:18] Werner:''' <span title="00:47:18"> Well, that's how I perceived walking down the central aisle, there </span><span title="00:47:24">probably was an amount of well-wishers and there must have been also some </span><span title="00:47:30">applause, but it was overwhelming. </span><span title="00:47:33">It was so overwhelming that some very credible reviewers like Amos </span><span title="00:47:40">Vogel, who wrote for The Village Voice, describes the scene. </span><span title="00:47:45">He described it. </span><span title="00:47:46">So it's not a figment of my fantasy. </span>

'''[00:47:50] Eric:''' <span title="00:47:50"> You know that there's this very strange story with </span><span title="00:47:52">the reviewer, Joe Morgenstern. </span><span title="00:47:54">When he first saw Bonnie and Clyde, he gave it a terrible review because </span><span title="00:47:59">the violence was so disturbing and it was set to uptempo, happy music. </span><span title="00:48:04">And he said, well, this is an abomination. </span><span title="00:48:06">And then strangely, a week or two later, he said, I have to review this film again. </span><span title="00:48:10">I was totally wrong. </span><span title="00:48:12">The film is a masterpiece because it took a while to just understand </span><span title="00:48:16">that that wasn't an error, but it was actually a brilliant artistic choice. </span><span title="00:48:19">Do you find that? </span>

'''[00:48:21] Werner:''' <span title="00:48:21"> You do not find it nowadays anymore. </span>

'''[00:48:23] Eric:''' <span title="00:48:23"> No one will listen to.... </span>

'''[00:48:24] Werner:''' <span title="00:48:24"> It must have been 40 years ago that somebody had the nerve and the </span><span title="00:48:29">guts and the caliber to declare himself wrong and taking a new fresh look at it. </span><span title="00:48:37">So, you hardly see it at all. </span>

'''[00:48:40] Eric:''' <span title="00:48:40"> So let me ask, I would love to ask you one final question before </span><span title="00:48:43">opening it up to the audience. </span><span title="00:48:44">You've spoken quite a lot for a filmmaker about the importance of reading and </span><span title="00:48:49">the written word, and you've written obviously beautifully, and so many of your </span><span title="00:48:55">thoughts in this Guide for the Perplexed. </span><span title="00:48:57">And you have previously spoken about how television was turning us into idiots and </span><span title="00:49:05">dumbing us down, and that reading would be the key quality that determined who </span><span title="00:49:10">would inherit power in the future world. </span><span title="00:49:14">What do you see in the 21st century as having changed in this equation, with </span><span title="00:49:22">television having gotten much better, and the internet having seemingly gotten us </span><span title="00:49:27">into a state where we weren't even able to get there with the idiot box, as it was? </span>

'''[00:49:31] Werner:''' <span title="00:49:31"> Well, television hasn't gotten that much better in some segments. </span><span title="00:49:34">Yes, in these long, limited, many season big stories that all of a </span><span title="00:49:42">sudden you can narrate large, large, expansive forms like War and Peace. </span><span title="00:49:49">So all of a sudden, we can create Dostoevsky on a TV screen, on </span><span title="00:49:54">Netflix screens or whatever. </span><span title="00:49:57">Of course the situation has become more precarious with </span><span title="00:50:01">the advent of the internet. </span><span title="00:50:05">But of course they are forces that have started way, way before the internet. </span><span title="00:50:11">We cannot blame it all, for example, people who would </span><span title="00:50:16">read, the numbers have declined considerably since 50 years or so. </span><span title="00:50:24">And today in universities, even in humanities or even in classics department </span><span title="00:50:31">where they should read ancient Greek and Latin, they do not read anymore and they </span><span title="00:50:37">have a hard time, and I've witnessed it. </span><span title="00:50:39">I've witnessed it in person. </span><span title="00:50:43">They are not even capable of writing three coherent signs and </span><span title="00:50:51">expressing one coherent, brief argument, and that's alarming. </span><span title="00:50:56">That's alarming, and that's why I tell young, aspiring filmmakers, </span><span title="00:51:02">yes, watch films and do whatever you need to learn in technical terms. </span><span title="00:51:06">But read, read, read, read, read, read. </span><span title="00:51:09">If you're don't read, you will be a filmmaker, but mediocre at best. </span><span title="00:51:16">If you really want to become somebody of significance, and everyone who is </span><span title="00:51:21">around at this time of significance is reading, they're all reading, everyone. </span><span title="00:51:29">And you are not, and it's not only for filmmaking, it's probably in </span><span title="00:51:33">your profession, the same thing. </span><span title="00:51:35">You cannot lose yourself in algorithms, and in a software questions, and </span><span title="00:51:45">in articulating of things, without conceptually being up to a very high </span><span title="00:51:52">standard of evolution, of not only technology, but civilization per se. </span><span title="00:51:58">We have a very, very deep task. </span><span title="00:52:01">And reading, in my opinion, is the thing that is absolutely needed. </span><span title="00:52:09">And what I keep saying sometimes, but nobody will understand it, but I say it </span><span title="00:52:16">anyway, traveling on foot and irrespective of the distance, and I've done very </span><span title="00:52:24">long distance traveling on foot, gives you an insight into the world itself. </span><span title="00:52:31">And I can say it only in a dictum, and I've repeated it before. </span><span title="00:52:35">The world reveals itself to those who travel on foot. </span><span title="00:52:40">Nothing else does with such clarity and such transparency, nothing, nothing. </span><span title="00:52:47">And yet nobody travels on foot. </span><span title="00:52:50">It doesn't matter. </span><span title="00:52:51">Stay where you are, but I just say it as a sign of hope. </span><span title="00:52:57">If you really want to understand the real world, and also conceptually </span><span title="00:53:03">where we are standing as human beings at this very moment in </span><span title="00:53:07">history, travel on foot and read. </span>

'''[00:53:11] Eric:''' <span title="00:53:11"> Fantastic advice. </span><span title="00:53:12">Let's see if we can, anybody can follow it and I would love </span><span title="00:53:16">to open it up to questions. </span><span title="00:53:17">What questions do we have for Werner Herzog? </span>

'''[00:53:22] Audience:''' <span title="00:53:22"> If there was one book or two books you would wish for this </span><span title="00:53:25">generation to read, what would it be? </span>

'''[00:53:29] Werner:''' <span title="00:53:29"> Oh, it's I don't want to give you one or two books, because then you </span><span title="00:53:33">would sit down and you would read them and you'd think, yeah, you have done it. </span><span title="00:53:37">So, you should not read two books, but 2000 books. </span><span title="00:53:44">But I give you, for those who are into creative things, and </span><span title="00:53:50">including, I would say, including even creative forms of mathematics. </span><span title="00:53:57">It's a book written by an obscure British writer published in 1967 and it's called </span><span title="00:54:05">The Peregrine, about watching, it's diaries, watching peregrine falcons at a </span><span title="00:54:11">time when the falcons were almost extinct. </span><span title="00:54:15">J. </span><span title="00:54:15">A. </span><span title="00:54:16">Baker, I think we know, only after a few decades, we even </span><span title="00:54:20">know what J and A stands for. </span><span title="00:54:23">I even don't know what his first name's were and middle name. </span><span title="00:54:27">And it has pros that we have not seen since since Joseph Conrad. </span><span title="00:54:33">And it has precision of observing a small segment of the real world, </span><span title="00:54:40">with a precision and also with an emphasis and a passion, that </span><span title="00:54:45">is unprecedented in literature. </span><span title="00:54:48">So in whatever you are doing, whether you are musician, a filmmaker, </span><span title="00:54:52">into mathematics or into computers. </span><span title="00:54:55">This kind of very, very deep, relentless passion for what you are doing. </span><span title="00:55:02">Very specific. </span><span title="00:55:03">And it's a great, wonderful book. </span><span title="00:55:08">What else? </span><span title="00:55:12">Well, there are many, but I have a list of mandatory books for my rogue film school, </span><span title="00:55:18">and some guerilla-style antithesis to film schools, and there's five or six books. </span><span title="00:55:26">What comes to mind is Bernal Díaz del Castillo, The Discovery </span><span title="00:55:33">and Conquest of New Spain, the original title is much, much longer. </span><span title="00:55:39">He was a foot man of Cortez, and when he was old, he wrote from his, apparently </span><span title="00:55:46">some diaries and reminiscences. </span><span title="00:55:48">He writes down an incredible story, incredibly rich in details and insight </span><span title="00:55:56">into the, into the heart of men. </span><span title="00:56:00">Anything else? </span><span title="00:56:01">Read the Russians, read Hölderlin and Kleist, the </span><span title="00:56:07">Germans, Büchner, also a German. </span><span title="00:56:12">Read Hemingway, read Joseph Conrad, the short stories in particular. </span><span title="00:56:19">So but don't believe that this would make you into a different person. </span><span title="00:56:28">It's, it's the permanence of reading, the insistence of reading. </span>

'''[00:56:36] Audience:''' <span title="00:56:36"> Is it more fulfilling to you to... </span>

'''[00:56:38] Werner:''' <span title="00:56:38"> Can you speak up a little bit? </span>

'''[00:56:40] Audience:''' <span title="00:56:40"> Is it more fulfilling for you to expose people to </span><span title="00:56:44">nuance, where they thought there were extremes or the reverse? </span>

'''[00:56:49] Eric:''' <span title="00:56:49"> Is it more important to expose people to nuance or? </span>

'''[00:56:53] Audience:''' <span title="00:56:53"> More fulfilling when you expose people to nuance where they had thought </span><span title="00:56:57">there was extreme or the opposite? </span>

'''[00:57:02] Werner:''' <span title="00:57:02"> I've never asked myself this question. </span><span title="00:57:04">It doesn't factor in my work. </span><span title="00:57:08">Well, I follow a very, very clear vision. </span><span title="00:57:14">I see a film very, very clearly, and of course it has a big story and it </span><span title="00:57:21">has extremes in it and it has nuances. </span><span title="00:57:25">And of course, I would never want to touch a story that was not really big. </span><span title="00:57:32">Well, I was convinced this is big and it has excesses and </span><span title="00:57:36">it has all sorts of things. </span><span title="00:57:37">At the same time, the real life, the real life comes from the </span><span title="00:57:43">nuance and from the details. </span><span title="00:57:46">So, but it's I cannot even separate it, I cannot give you a satisfying </span><span title="00:57:53">juxtaposition of both, but it doesn't function in the way I make my films. </span>

'''[00:58:08] Audience:''' <span title="00:58:08"> I heard you like carrying bolt cutters, have </span><span title="00:58:11">those ever gotten you in trouble? </span>

'''[00:58:13] Werner:''' <span title="00:58:13"> Bolt cutters you have to take metaphorically, I </span><span title="00:58:22">have a whole list of things. </span><span title="00:58:25">Does anyone have the book A Guide for the Perplexed here, because I see it here </span><span title="00:58:32">on the can you give it to me please? </span><span title="00:58:34">Thank you. </span><span title="00:58:35">A Guide for the Perplexed, and we spoke about before, the title is so beautiful, </span><span title="00:58:41">I had to steal it from Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher, middle </span><span title="00:58:47">age Spain, I think Seville or Córdoba, I don't even remember, but anyway. </span><span title="00:58:54">And here on the back end, by the way, it's a real bear, it's no Photoshop. </span><span title="00:59:01">My wife, who sits back there, did this photo. </span><span title="00:59:05">I don't know how it was put together, but it's sums a lot of things up </span><span title="00:59:14">and it speaks of bolt cutters. </span><span title="00:59:16">Always take the initiative. </span><span title="00:59:18">There's nothing wrong with spending a night in a jail cell, if it means </span><span title="00:59:23">getting the shot you need, send all your dogs and one might return with </span><span title="00:59:28">prey, never wallow in your travels, despair must be kept private and brief. </span><span title="00:59:35">Learn to live with your mistakes. </span><span title="00:59:38">Expand your knowledge and understanding of music and literature, old and modern. </span><span title="00:59:44">That roll of unexposed celluloid you have in your hand might be </span><span title="00:59:48">the last in existence, so do something impressive with it. </span><span title="00:59:53">The laptop in front of you may be the last one in existence, do </span><span title="00:59:58">something good and impressive with it. </span><span title="01:00:01">There's never an excuse not to finish a film. </span><span title="01:00:04">Carry bolt cutters everywhere. </span><span title="01:00:07">Thwart institutional cowardice. </span><span title="01:00:11">There's too much institutional cowardice in the film industry, and I </span><span title="01:00:16">do believe the computer industry and software and so, has bolder designs. </span><span title="01:00:29">I think there's not too much institutional cowardice. </span><span title="01:00:34">It comes now after things like Facebook have been established. </span><span title="01:00:39">How do we stop excesses on Facebook? </span><span title="01:00:43">How do we stop excesses on Instagram? </span><span title="01:00:48">Do we show, do we have to stop a real beheading of a hostage </span><span title="01:00:53">in real time or do we not do it? </span><span title="01:00:55">So the institutionalization of content is coming post festum, after it has been </span><span title="01:01:04">normally but in the film industry, for example, the institutional cowardice </span><span title="01:01:12">comes before you even make a move. </span><span title="01:01:14">They ask you, do you have, for example, E and O insurance? </span><span title="01:01:23">Do you have a, how do you call it, some sort of insurance, a completion bond? </span><span title="01:01:35">No, I don't, and I make a film anyway, but in that case, I had to </span><span title="01:01:41">finance it out of my own pocket. </span><span title="01:01:44">Can I move in a wild way back to a very early question about </span><span title="01:01:53">something that is fabricated, like WrestleMania has a lot of truth in it. </span><span title="01:01:58">They get away with bruises and dislocated elbows. </span><span title="01:02:03">The last film I made is a feature film called Family Romance LLC. </span><span title="01:02:10">Romance is a business in Japan, in the Japanese language, where you can </span><span title="01:02:15">hire a missing friend, a family a father of a family during a wedding </span><span title="01:02:23">ceremony, because the real father allegedly suffers from epilepsy. </span><span title="01:02:30">In truth, he's an alcoholic and cannot be shown to the groom's parents and family. </span><span title="01:02:37">And there's an interesting thing that happens, the men who actually, in </span><span title="01:02:41">reality, founded this company, Family Romance, who sends out 1,600 agents </span><span title="01:02:49">and actors to help you feel less lonesome and replace a family member. </span><span title="01:02:56">He was filmed by Japanese television. </span><span title="01:03:00">They interviewed him and they interviewed one of his clients, </span><span title="01:03:05">who in his solitude had rented a friend, and he's in the film as well. </span><span title="01:03:11">It turns out that the client was actually not a client, he was also </span><span title="01:03:18">a rented member from Family Romance. </span><span title="01:03:21">He was an imposter put in front of the NHK cameras, NHK apologized </span><span title="01:03:29">profusely in print and on the air. </span><span title="01:03:33">And the founder of Family Romance says something very, very significant now, he </span><span title="01:03:39">says, I do believe that the imposter that was sent out from my pool of actor tells </span><span title="01:03:52">you more of the truth than a real one. </span><span title="01:03:56">The real one would lie to the cameras because in Japan, in their society, </span><span title="01:04:02">you have to keep face and you cannot admit that your life is miserable, </span><span title="01:04:06">and you were lonesome, and you were crying at home in your pillow. </span><span title="01:04:10">And so, this person, the real person would not say that, he would lie to the camera, </span><span title="01:04:16">but Mike, my man who was put in front of your camera, my man who has done it 200 </span><span title="01:04:23">times, comforting solitary people, he tells you the gist, the real truth about </span><span title="01:04:30">what is going on, and I think he's right. </span><span title="01:04:34">I'm sure he's right. </span>

'''[01:04:37] Eric:''' <span title="01:04:37"> Yeah, I'm very... </span>

'''[01:04:39] Werner:''' <span title="01:04:39"> The imposter has more truth in him than the real person, who </span><span title="01:04:45">wants to keep a facade of whatever well-behaved behavior in public. </span>

'''[01:04:53] Eric:''' <span title="01:04:53"> Do we have some other questions? </span>

'''[01:04:59] Audience:''' <span title="01:04:59"> If you could make a film about our generation, or the generation </span><span title="01:05:03">that sits in this room, what do you think the logline would be? </span>

'''[01:05:07] Werner:''' <span title="01:05:07"> I wouldn't know any logline, but I have done a film on the internet. </span><span title="01:05:15">Lo and behold, which, has appealed very much to your generation </span><span title="01:05:22">or even the younger ones. </span><span title="01:05:23">You are already a veteran. </span><span title="01:05:26">It's the 15 year olds who probably come up and have to teach you, </span><span title="01:05:31">the 35 year old or 25 year old. </span><span title="01:05:36">No, I wouldn't know a logline, but I have made a lot of films that apparently, </span><span title="01:05:45">were for a general audience when I made them 40 years ago, 45 years </span><span title="01:05:50">ago, The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser. </span><span title="01:05:54">All of a sudden I get emails of 15 year old, young kids, from Missoula </span><span title="01:06:01">Montana, because today they can have access to the film by streaming or </span><span title="01:06:08">other ways through the internet. </span><span title="01:06:10">Piracy, for example, which is a successful distribution system. </span><span title="01:06:17">And all of a sudden, it's the very, very young who respond to my films. </span><span title="01:06:24">And it's not foreign to me, I have always made films for those who are mentally </span><span title="01:06:34">active and who are in turmoil and who are looking out for organizing their lives. </span><span title="01:06:43">So I have always been, in a way, I've been young and now the film in Japan is </span><span title="01:06:48">a return to the times when I was 23, 24, 25, when I made Aguirre, the Wrath of God.</span><span title="01:06:58">You wouldn't know what would come after the next bend of the river. </span><span title="01:07:02">What there be rapids or not? </span><span title="01:07:05">So, and this kind of readiness to face whatever is going to be thrown at you, </span><span title="01:07:14">and you just face it and you deal with it. </span>

'''[01:07:18] Eric:''' <span title="01:07:18"> Do you actually, in terms of the generation that might </span><span title="01:07:23">now be rediscovering your films. </span><span title="01:07:26">Do you have any thoughts about the way in which we are going back and </span><span title="01:07:30">reevaluating cinematic work based on our new feelings about the directors? </span><span title="01:07:36">I'm thinking of Tarantino who put Uma Thurman at risk in Kill Bill, </span><span title="01:07:44">which I thought was a fantastic film, and Woody Allen, of course, with his </span><span title="01:07:47">difficulties having his work reevaluated. </span><span title="01:07:50">Are we how do you feel about bodies of work being reprocessed through the lens </span><span title="01:07:58">of the alleged failures of the creators? </span>

'''[01:08:01] Werner:''' <span title="01:08:01"> I think there will be a renascence, and we see it already, for </span><span title="01:08:05">example, classical music, all of a sudden has, I just read yesterday or today, has </span><span title="01:08:13">new platforms on the internet, that's all steered towards mainstream pop. </span><span title="01:08:20">All of a sudden you can access it. </span><span title="01:08:22">For example, in movies, The Criterion Collection, which is a </span><span title="01:08:26">very, very fine collection of films, had disappeared and reappeared </span><span title="01:08:32">apparently as it's either independent streaming label or within Amazon. </span><span title="01:08:39">I have to find out. </span><span title="01:08:40">I don't know yet, but all of a sudden these things are back. </span><span title="01:08:43">And, the 15 year old from Missoula, Montana is not just </span><span title="01:08:50">back, he is just emerging. </span><span title="01:08:53">So now I have no doubts, that we are gonna see films set outside of the </span><span title="01:09:03">regular mainstream, but have depth and vision and wonderful stories. </span><span title="01:09:09">They will not disappear. </span><span title="01:09:12">The shallow will disappear. </span><span title="01:09:14">The shallow of of yesterday. </span><span title="01:09:16">When you look at talk shows, so at pop shows, often 1960s, it's </span><span title="01:09:23">just stunning how shallow they are and they disappear very quickly. </span>

'''[01:09:30] Eric:''' <span title="01:09:30"> Yeah, are there some other questions? </span>

'''[01:09:35] Audience:''' <span title="01:09:35"> You mentioned that technological utopianism will end just as social </span><span title="01:09:40">utopianism ended in the past century. </span><span title="01:09:44">What do you think that looks like, or perhaps what occupies </span><span title="01:09:47">the minds of men next? </span>

'''[01:09:48] Werner:''' <span title="01:09:48"> Well, when I'm speaking about a technological utopia that inevitably </span><span title="01:09:56">will come to an end, what comes to mind is immediately space colonization. </span><span title="01:10:03">Not only is it an obscenity, it's also undoable. </span><span title="01:10:09">Obscenity because it hints at us, the human race, like locusts grazing </span><span title="01:10:16">our planet empty, and then moving on. </span><span title="01:10:19">We can move onto Mars, for example, but it should be contained and it's </span><span title="01:10:24">doable for a few scientists, a few astronauts who have a small, tiny </span><span title="01:10:29">little habitat, where they have enough drinking water, enough shelter against </span><span title="01:10:33">radiation, and enough air to breathe. </span><span title="01:10:37">Yes, we can create that. </span><span title="01:10:39">We will not put 1 million humans on planet Mars. </span><span title="01:10:45">It's not going to happen. </span><span title="01:10:47">It's technically not really doable and unwise, and a part from Mars, we cannot </span><span title="01:10:54">reach anything outside of our solar system because it's simply too far. </span><span title="01:10:59">It would take your 110,000 years to reach the next one, which is only three and a </span><span title="01:11:05">half or four and a half light years away. </span><span title="01:11:07">We just won't be able to do it, period. </span><span title="01:11:12">And this kind of illusion, this kind of utopia, technical utopia, will come to a </span><span title="01:11:20">fairly quick end in our century or other utopia that come to mind, immortality. </span><span title="01:11:30">Of course, we can stretch out longevity to a certain point, but that's about it. </span><span title="01:11:36">We are going to die. </span><span title="01:11:38">That's what the entire creation everywhere, and not only on our planet, </span><span title="01:11:43">everywhere, points to the same thing, that there's an impermanence of what is around </span><span title="01:11:51">everywhere, so that's one of the things. </span><span title="01:11:56">I have to think about other utopias, technical utopias, but </span><span title="01:12:02">you are much closer to approaching technical utopias than I am. </span><span title="01:12:09">So you have to find out what we should do and what we should not </span><span title="01:12:13">do, and what is a utopia and what is within realities of human beings. </span>

'''[01:12:24] Eric:''' <span title="01:12:24"> You have time for one or two last questions. </span>

'''[01:12:27] Audience:''' <span title="01:12:27"> Mr. </span><span title="01:12:27">Herzog, I would like to ask... </span>

'''[01:12:29] Werner:''' <span title="01:12:29"> Can you speak up a little? </span>

'''[01:12:31] Audience:''' <span title="01:12:31"> I'd like to ask about the way you think a camera </span><span title="01:12:35">changes a real situation. </span><span title="01:12:37">The way in which you talk about the real world, when you interject </span><span title="01:12:42">a camera into it, how it affects the perception of people who are </span><span title="01:12:47">aware that the camera is there. </span>

'''[01:12:50] Werner:''' <span title="01:12:50"> Yeah. </span><span title="01:12:50">It's an old philosophical question and a physical question of how </span><span title="01:12:55">deep do you insert your camera or your position as an observer? </span><span title="01:13:01">Does it change the reality that's out there? </span><span title="01:13:04">Hopefully it does because I'm a creator. </span><span title="01:13:07">I'm not an observation camera in the bank, that waits for 15 years </span><span title="01:13:13">and no bank robber ever shows up. </span><span title="01:13:15">So we are not, we are not the fly on the wall. </span><span title="01:13:18">I want to insert myself. </span><span title="01:13:20">I want to create, I want to mold, I want to influence my </span><span title="01:13:25">story, even the documentaries. </span><span title="01:13:28">And I do change facts. </span><span title="01:13:34">And I'm quoting now, André Gide, the French writer who said: "I change </span><span title="01:13:40">facts to such a degree that they resemble truth more than reality." </span><span title="01:13:47">And it's a wonderful way to say it. </span><span title="01:13:50">And, you'll see you are too. </span><span title="01:13:54">If you are seriously asking the question with an indignant undertone, it means </span><span title="01:14:01">that you are very much fact oriented, which I don't believe in your case, </span><span title="01:14:06">but many people are too fact oriented and cinema does not have to be. </span><span title="01:14:12">Even documentaries have to only partly be fact oriented, because </span><span title="01:14:18">the effects do not equal truth. </span><span title="01:14:22">They do not, and it's the same thing like with Family Romance, the imposter gives </span><span title="01:14:27">you a deeper truth than the real person. </span><span title="01:14:30">And my simplest of all explanations is, and I have used it many times, so if </span><span title="01:14:38">you have heard it from me, my apologies. </span><span title="01:14:42">Michelangelo creating the sculpture of the Pietà, Jesus in the arms </span><span title="01:14:50">of Mary as a 33 year old man. </span><span title="01:14:56">And when you look at Mary, she's 17. </span><span title="01:14:58">His mother is 17. </span><span title="01:15:01">So of course it's not factually correct, but he didn't want to </span><span title="01:15:06">cheat us or lie to us or whatever. </span><span title="01:15:09">He just wanted to point out an essential truth was something that resembles </span><span title="01:15:16">more truth, because I do not know what truth is, nor do mathematicians. </span><span title="01:15:22">I think only deeply religious people know what it is. </span><span title="01:15:27">So they have an easier life than those who are not religious. </span>

'''[01:15:33] Eric:''' <span title="01:15:33"> Do we have a last question? </span>

'''[01:15:39] Audience:''' <span title="01:15:39"> I worked years ago with David Blaine on a show called Vertigo. </span><span title="01:15:45">They had me watch a film called The Passion of the Woodcarver Steiner. </span><span title="01:15:53">There's a scene at the end with a raven, and they wanted to be very </span><span title="01:16:00">much to focus on that and find what, who the raven was in Blaine's life, </span><span title="01:16:06">and we couldn't really find them. </span><span title="01:16:08">And the implication being that the raven maybe wasn't real in your film. </span><span title="01:16:14">So I guess I have waited awhile to ask you this, but was the </span><span title="01:16:16">Raven real, and does it matter? </span><span title="01:16:18">And with all these questions about truth, are there any things in documentary </span><span title="01:16:22">film that would be revolting for you? </span><span title="01:16:26">Like for example, Martin Scorsese was recently accused of putting a </span><span title="01:16:30">fake character in his Bob Dylan film. </span><span title="01:16:33">Is there anything that wouldn't be okay? </span>

'''[01:16:37] Werner:''' <span title="01:16:37"> No, I think putting a fictitious character in a Bob Dylan </span><span title="01:16:42">documentary, congratulations to Scorsese, who is normally cowardly </span><span title="01:16:47">when it comes to expanding forums. </span><span title="01:16:50">He follows very much the norm. </span><span title="01:16:53">He's a wonderful filmmaker, but not really extravagantly </span><span title="01:16:58">courageous into creating new things. </span><span title="01:17:01">I have not seen the Bob Dylan film, but I welcome what you are saying. </span><span title="01:17:06">What you are saying about Harmony Korine and David Blaine, the magician, he </span><span title="01:17:12">seems, I don't like David Blaine at all. </span><span title="01:17:16">He's repulsive in everything he's doing, but what seems to be significant is he </span><span title="01:17:27">tries, he started as an illusionist, doing card tricks and illusions. </span><span title="01:17:33">He seems to be moving away from the illusionist into trying to strain </span><span title="01:17:40">his body to its utmost limits, to the brink of death, which is stupid. </span><span title="01:17:46">It's outright stupid to immerse yourself in a water tank for a whole week. </span><span title="01:17:51">It can't get any more stupid than that. </span><span title="01:17:54">And he's just making a living out of something that is definitely obscene. </span>

'''[01:18:02] Eric:''' <span title="01:18:02"> Do you not have a cactus needle stuck in your kneecap now? </span>

'''[01:18:07] Werner:''' <span title="01:18:07"> No, it stayed for a few years in my knee sinew, I </span><span title="01:18:12">jumped for a cast of midgets. </span><span title="01:18:15">I made a film, Even Dwarfs Started Small, and one of them was run </span><span title="01:18:20">over by a car that was driverless going in circles, one caught fire, </span><span title="01:18:26">and so atthe end I said, you... </span>

'''[01:18:28] Eric:''' <span title="01:18:28"> You threw yourself on a midget to put out the fire, and then... </span>

'''[01:18:32] Werner:''' <span title="01:18:32"> Sure, you better do that, because everybody else was just looking at </span><span title="01:18:36">like, at a Christmas tree burning, and the first thing you do, throw yourself </span><span title="01:18:42">on the him and extinguish the guy. </span><span title="01:18:45">I didn't smother him. </span><span title="01:18:46">I didn't squish him. </span>

'''[01:18:47] Eric:''' <span title="01:18:47"> No one is saying that. </span>

'''[01:18:48] Werner:''' <span title="01:18:48"> Yes, but I said, if all of you come out unscathed at the end of the </span><span title="01:18:53">movie, I'm gonna, from this ramp, I'm gonna jump into this field of cacti. </span><span title="01:18:57">And you all have your, at that time, eight millimeter cameras and your photo </span><span title="01:19:02">cameras and you can take your picture. </span><span title="01:19:05">And I take off and I leaped and, yeah sure, some of them got stuck in my knee </span><span title="01:19:11">sinews, and they don't get out easily. </span>

'''[01:19:14] Eric:''' <span title="01:19:14"> It would be an honor, sir, to take you to lunch with David </span><span title="01:19:17">Blaine to work this thing out. </span>

'''[01:19:19] Werner:''' <span title="01:19:19"> Yes. </span><span title="01:19:19">No, no, to the next parking lot, not for dinner. </span><span title="01:19:23">I wouldn't like to have a dinner with him. </span><span title="01:19:26">I do not want to ruin my appetite, but I would gladly take him to </span><span title="01:19:32">the men's room to fight it out, to take him to the parking lot. </span><span title="01:19:39">Ask the... </span>

'''[01:19:40] Eric:''' <span title="01:19:40"> We can settle this however you want to. </span>

'''[01:19:41] Werner:''' <span title="01:19:41"> Ask the valets to step into obscurity and just </span><span title="01:19:47">let us sort it out among men. </span><span title="01:19:50">Okay. </span>

'''[01:19:50] Eric:''' <span title="01:19:50"> Werner, I gotta tell you, your life has been an inspiration to me since I </span><span title="01:19:56">was 16 and it doesn't even feel like you can meet a Werner Herzog in real life. </span><span title="01:20:02">So it's a very special day in my life. </span><span title="01:20:03">I want to thank you for coming, bringing your stories, your </span><span title="01:20:06">wisdom, your views on arts and your admonitions, which no one is following. </span><span title="01:20:11">I think that probably there's some in our audience who are going to </span><span title="01:20:13">make a special note, that this is the advice that's hard to get behind. </span>

'''[01:20:18] Werner:''' <span title="01:20:18"> Yeah, but it's your life still. </span><span title="01:20:20">You don't need to listen to me. </span><span title="01:20:21">You will find your own guidance and your own vision. </span><span title="01:20:27">Best of luck to all of you. </span>

'''[01:20:30] Eric:''' <span title="01:20:30"> All right. </span><span title="01:20:30">A huge hand for Werner Herzog people.</span>

[[Category:The Portal Podcast]]
[[Category:Podcast Episodes]]
[[Category:Interview Episodes]]
[[Category:YouTube]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:Audio]]
[[Category:Transcript]]